Hitachi starter variations

[asavage]

When it screws up the starter motor is always turning, but just not engaged.

Unless the solenoid plunger has become physically disconnected from the yoke lever that pushes the drive out, the solenoid is not at fault. The solenoid cannot apply power to the motor until the plunger is completely rearward, at which point the gear should be fully extended and meshed with the flywheel's ring gear.

You have a failed one-way clutch in the starter drive (behind/inside the pinion gear).

[ecomike]

OK, sounds right, but what about the 1 in 3 no starts where it sounds like the gears are grinding and not fully meshed. Did this on two of three morning first starts. The other 2 or 3 failures on those 3 morning first starts were just a high speed spinning motor, no grinding no engine rotation, which I agree (after reading the FSMs and finding the pinion/clutch and reading up on it) sounds like the pinion clutch dying or dead.

Then after those first 3 failed start attempts, each of three mornings in a row it worked perfectly the rest of the day. The part I guess that bothers me is, was the grinding sound I heard on 2 of the three mornings on 1 of 3 failed starting attempts.

Meanwhile today, I cleaned the M/F contacts on the small wire running to the solenoid, tightened up and cleaned the female push on connector (spade lug style) as it was dirty and a little loose, washed the outside of the solenoid and starter down w/ half a can of brake fluid, let it dry, and tested the starter over a dozen times, without (first) the glow plugs on, and with the glow plugs on (second), and the starter worked perfectly every single time. With glow plugs hot it starts in about 1.5 seconds. Note the battery is only 2 weeks old, 1000 cold cranking amps, and the hot wire and ground wire (engine ground) to the starter are about 2 ga (huge). It was cranking at and holding 11.5 volts minimum with the glow plugs on.

I guess it's waiting for me to drive across town now so it can strand me with an "I warned you I needed fixing statement".

Guess I will test it in the driveway a few more days to see if the problem comes back. So far It won't repeat the problem at all today.

[asavage]

OK, sounds right, but what about the 1 in 3 no starts where it sounds like the gears are grinding and not fully meshed.

If your noise is a kind of gawdawful "ZEEEEEP", then you'll be looking for a replacement flywheel (or replacement ring gear for your existing flywheel) soon. The ring gear does have a valid Nissan part No.

A failing one-way clutch in the pinion gear can sometimes make a very bad sound too, but more usually it's noisy on spin-down or over-run, not while trying to crank a non-running engine.

[ecomike]

The sounds was like grinding teeth, a sound I have heard before on Ford or Dodge gassers when the teeth don't engage fully on the flywheel and the starter gear.

[plenzen]

I had this same horrible sound in my SD25's starter and it was the Sprague clutch in the starter that was making the noise. The ring gear did have the usual wear marks 180 degrees apart from each other. They were not what I would call excessive, and when I got the rebuilt starter back with the clutch rebuilt, and a new pinion gear installed, these noises went away. I did however have some issues with the new pinion being a tad too tight, and the starter not wanting to engage, or release once engaged all the time, but a small 1/64th (approx) "relief" ground to the leading edge of new the pinion with a die grinder quickly solved that problem. That, and a number of start cycles "wore in" the new piece, and it is fine today 9 months later (nearly).,,,,,,,,,,, That being said, Al will correct me if the clutch mechanism on the SD 25 GR starter and the SD 22 GR starter are the same animal or not. Mine was hit and miss and I never knew if it was going to make that god-awful sound or not, but it was getting more frequent when I decided to investigate (fearing the worst of what I was going to see) and got it rebuilt. I too thought that it was peeling the gears off the ring gear but it was not. Worst case scenario, you can rotate the ring gear 90 degrees and get some new life if you can’t find a new one. I know that people will say that there will be “4 “places on the ring gear where it is worn, but, from what I saw with mine, the two most worn places were 180 apart, and one was more worn than the other,,,,,,,,,,slightly. I marked it and rotated and checked it. Even rotating it (ring gear) the same distance as the number of worn teeth in the cranking direction will get some more miles from an extinct ring gear.

[asavage]

With six bolts retaining the flywheel to the crankshaft, 90° offset is not an option.

Next, the crank/flywheel is doweled

(click on any image for larger)


WRT moving the ring gear in relation to the flywheel, if you get the old ring gear off, I wouldn't put it back on unless there was an unusual circumstance, since new ring gears are apparently available (nismoparts lists one of the part Nos. at $115).

Changing the starter drive is definitely the place to start. As bad as the 720 trans R&R is, it can't hold a candle to the difficulty in getting your transfer case/trans out and back in [later edit] Whoops, your's is 2WD, never mind.

Lastly, the term for the starter drive's one-way clutch is "sprag". "Sprague" used to be an electronics component mfgr back when I was a child, and I'm sure there are many other meanings of "Sprague", but a sprag clutch is a particular type of one-way clutch that uses clutch pieces that are kind of (but not really) kidney-shaped. There are other types of construction for one-way clutches too.

[ecomike]

I am pretty sure the ring gear in mine is still in like new condition from the looks of the last 2 starter pulls and their drive gear (or pinion gear?) and from what I recall of what I have seen recently and previously of the ring gear, it almost looks new. Only had that horrible noise twice and only for a 1/2 second each time, and it has started flawlessly for at least 20 times in a row now since I drenched it in brake cleaning fluid. If I had already damaged the ring gear I would thing I would be hearing about it by now. Keeping my fingers crossed on the starter, and if it gives me any more guff, its getting pulled if an when I pull the alternator.

[plenzen]

Sorry for the spelling error I did not mention to turn or move the flywheel and was perhaps not clear in marking, removing and turning the ring gear only. I did mention that if the ring gear was near extinct that this was a possible option though. . For 115.00 a new one is for sure the best bet,,,,,,,,,,,,,if that is what was wrong. I only refered to the "SPRAG" clutch as that because that is what the rebuilder refered to it as.

[ecomike]

Looking over my old 81-82 FSMs I found the following old part numbers for the SD22 Hitachi DD starters:
S12-19K
S13-45B

The one I have currently (which has a dying one way clutch as Al tried to tel me last year) is an S12-68B.

I am on the hunt today for a good working spare.

[ecomike]

After about 100 page searches I found this page. It has some interesting listings.

http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mfr,BOSCH ... 52,Starter

You may need to go through the year model menus (81, Nissan, 720 PU, SD22) or browse down to the Beck/Arnley # 1870354 starter. Warranty is listed as 36 Months/50,000 miles, and they quoted me about $10 for shipping, and $138.79 cost includes the $40 core charge! This looks like the DD starter I have and need.

Be forewarned, most everyone else is substituting the gear drive starter for the DD starter now as the equal replacement when you ask for an S12-68B Hitachi starter. So ordering an S12-68B, may not get you anything but a substitute gear drive model.

Also some of the replacement starters they list would require that the solenoid be on the bottom, if they fit at all. And I think the gear reduction ones run up against the block with a fit problem on the SD22, IIRC.

More details at:
http://www.beckcatalog.com
In summary this is the only place I have found the exact replacement DD Hitachi S12-68B starter in stock, and after I order mine there will only be 3 left in their inventory.

[ecomike]

Rock auto is now out of these DD starters (that was fast), and the one they sent me seems to be defective. It does not want to stop running sometimes.

New thread on the disengagement problem is here:

http://nissandiesel.dyndns.org/viewtopi ... 6404#16404

[ecomike]

Well after a several hundred starts (estimate), this starter is not wanting to shut off again. I had to disconnect thew battery to kill it the last 3 starts, which took a good 60 seconds the last 2 times, nearly 3 minutes the first time. I am assuming it the solenoid in the starter sticking, or an alignment problem. I will be checking the mounting bolts next. I will post anything I find on the starter itself.