Asking Alignment Mech about Toyota

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philip
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#16

Post by philip » 13 years ago

davehoos wrote:it was fixed onto the wheel rim then you set the bubble and a SAI reading to zero.then you undone to clamp on the bearing and rotated the tyre.and reset the bubble this aligned the projector with the wheel.then you read off the head board camber.you then adjusted toe with a beam shining on 2 mirrors.you then checked toe-out on turns i think from memory the outside wheel was 20 deg in.you clamped the the projector and turned it to oposite tyres 20 deg in and read off caster and toe on turn.
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davehoos wrote:ive been into a few workshops that had these visualiners headboards in there pit.the aligning tools had long gone.
So do (FWD) front drive axle wheels turn toward toe-in or toward toe-out while the vehicle is accelerating straight ahead?
-Philip
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davehoos
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#17

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

short answer is most average FWD systems toe-in when accelerating.
they also toe in when driving and on cruise.

a good design FWD will be neutral.
[my RWD leyland has parrallel tie rod and lower arm in a trapezium format that works like older rear strut suspension on japanese FWD.-as caster decreases with speed and braking there is no toe change] toe is zero.load is transfered to a radius rod on the leyland it is in compression and as it loads up the inner rubber bush on the lower arm the change in geometry decreases the toe.fitting a stiffer radius bush increases toe out at speed.

decelerating and braking normally causes increased toe-out.

if the inset measure is a large value it will toe in on braking.

phillip,you have a 720 4X4 the closest to that i can find tonight is a D21.
not the same but similar.toe in setting for a RWD is 5mm for bias tyre and 3mm radial.4X4 is 5mm and 4mm.but the pathfinder is 2mm regardless of tyres.all mesurements are +- 2mm.when i worked on them we worked on 0-2mm for all and concentrated on getting camber right.but now 4x4 are mostly constant 4x4 so the fronts are similar to a FWD.

there are large tyre and wheel alignment chains here as in america.the advertise that each company has newer and better electronic measuring equipment.they are good as you drive in they give a printout of your car versus a data book value very quickly.trouble is unless the operator has skill in working out what is the owners needs-or in my case i have a japanese import that is not listed in the data bank.
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philip
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#18

Post by philip » 13 years ago

davehoos wrote:short answer is most average FWD systems toe-in when accelerating.
they also toe in when driving and on cruise.
WHEW. You finally corrected your earlier FWD toe description.

(snip)
davehoos wrote:phillip,you have a 720 4X4 the closest to that i can find tonight is a D21.
not the same but similar.toe in setting for a RWD is 5mm for bias tyre and 3mm radial.4X4 is 5mm and 4mm.but the pathfinder is 2mm regardless of tyres.all mesurements are +- 2mm.when i worked on them we worked on 0-2mm for all and concentrated on getting camber right.but now 4x4 are mostly constant 4x4 so the fronts are similar to a FWD.
There is no "phillip" nor any 720/4x4 or D21 on this particular forum. ONLY the Corolla FWD car here.
-Philip
Passed 08May2008
My friend, you are missed . . .

1982 Datsun 720KC SD-22

"Im slow and I'm ahead of you"

davehoos
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#19

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

driving axles normally toe in with axceleration.so they are set to toe-out.
FWD wheels are normally inset ,so they [driving wheels] naturally try to toe-out on acceleration.
the original discusion was about the rear tortion beam and why it has lots of toe in.
its a non driving axle.if the car in question has cheese cutter tyres with no inset there is very little geometry changes as you drive along.most corrolla now have wide tyres with lots of inset.so there is a lot of changes due to speed and braking..accelerating has little effect.the specs are givien as unloaded as i would expect them to change with load.
I do not understand what you refer with "inset".
INSET is more of an influence in this condition.think of a rolling pin,when you push on both sides of the pin evenly in travels in a striaght line.if you hold it on one end it will roll in a circle.ON FWD IT IS HELD ON THE OUTSIDE OF THAT CIRCLE.

i added the D21 4X4 bit as its same rules apply.it has FWD BUT the toe-in is set from 0 to 7 mm depending on tyres,road wheels and speed used.australian D21 4X4 has 30mm of OFFSET with its 6 inch wide road wheels.D21 in other countries have 40mm of OFFSET with 5 1/2 inch as average speeds are lower.camber is set to -5 deg

I again apologise for refeing to other products and systems but in order to work out why things work you need to look at other methods of solving problems.it likely that the rear end is just cheeper to make.or that it gives more trunk room than the old strut design.
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R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

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philip
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#20

Post by philip » 13 years ago

davehoos wrote:the original discusion was about the rear tortion beam and why it has lots of toe in.
Not true. On this Corolla, the beam torsion set to toe-in 0.1 - 0.2 mm is Toyota's normal range. I asked only why that range had not chose zero set.
davehoos wrote:its a non driving axle.if the car in question has cheese cutter tyres with no inset there is very little geometry changes as you drive along.
No "cheese cutter" tires. (out here .... "feathered edge"?)
davehoos wrote:most corrolla now have wide tyres with lots of inset.

Whatever "inset" means, I am still without clue in America. Do you mean something spindle or axis inclination?
davehoos wrote:I again apologise for refeing to other products and systems but in order to work out why things work you need to look at other methods of solving problems. it likely that the rear end is just cheeper to make. or that it gives more trunk room than the old strut design.
Your wandering & obscure examples bring quickly a migrane pill to me. :roll:
-Philip
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My friend, you are missed . . .

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davehoos
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#21

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

INSET; the measurement from the verticle centerline of the road wheel[rim] to the face that contacts the axles flange [brake drum and disc].

inset measurements-the larger the number indicates that the flange is closer to the outside of the car.

OFFSET-larger the number the flange is placed closer to the inside .[deep dished]

CHEESE CUTTER TYRES-very narrow tread contact..also pizza cutter.suited to drag racing and plowing fields.

feathered tyre.if it is feathered across the whole face of the tyre:it is incorrect amount of toe or serious poor alignment of the axle.
if its feathered on one side its more likely too much camber for the amount of toe adjustment.normally negitive camber tyres feather on outside due to the drag on the inside.you can buy tryres designed for this issue.

toe setting F/R on the toyota changes as you drive along.toe in and negitive camber is more stable.

I havnt found a web reference to the rules that explains it but if you have camber you need a toe amount to compensate.if you lean a tyre it naturally wont run in a straight line.
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R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
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philip
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#22

Post by philip » 13 years ago

davehoos wrote:INSET; the measurement from the verticle centerline of the road wheel[rim] to the face that contacts the axles flange [brake drum and disc]. -SNIP-
OFFSET-larger the number the flange is placed closer to the inside .[deep dished]
Were you trying to link inset wheel with toe-in/out?
davehoos wrote:CHEESE CUTTER TYRES-very narrow tread contact..also pizza cutter.suited to drag racing and plowing fields.
Talking about old Italian cars. :wink:
davehoos wrote:_SNIP- Normally negitive camber tyres feather on outside due to the drag on the inside.
Seeing excessive negative camber, I have not seen outside feather that was not due to excessive toe. Toe was affecting edge feather. (See worn out arm bushes.)
-Philip
Passed 08May2008
My friend, you are missed . . .

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davehoos
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#23

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

Were you trying to link inset wheel with toe-in/out?
yes-the toe adjustment has taken into acount the inset and camber.
inset has an effect on tyre tread movement.inset has minimal effect when stationary.

it has a different effect on a driving wheel compared to a non driving wheel or a narrow or wide wheel.

ive seen claims that alloy wheels are more ridgid,so different rules aply.

Ive done a lot of work on new cars with low milage with tyre wear issues.different customers experience problems.sometimes it is due to construction problems most of the time its due to the car not being suited to the owners needs.in this case if modifications are required they must have factory backing.

tyre technoligy has changed so rapidly since i started in 1981.people i worked with then were just getting used to steel belted radials and radial tuned suspension.it was on european cars in 60's.
we now can buy tyres that are to suit vehicles with lots of camber.my understanding is that one sidewall is soft so the tyre gives a flat foot print.

bump steer also has an effect on tyre wear.[feathered]
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

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philip
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#24

Post by philip » 13 years ago

davehoos wrote:Ive done a lot of work on new cars with low milage with tyre wear issues. different customers experience problems.
"Our cars are engineered to specification and built to perfection. Our problems begin when purchased by Buyers. -BMW"
-Philip
Passed 08May2008
My friend, you are missed . . .

1982 Datsun 720KC SD-22

"Im slow and I'm ahead of you"

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