Starter Motor

#31

Thanks for the info. Your photo above, the one with the quarter, looks like my positive terminal except that your's has a terminal attached. I think goglio704 is right . It looks like the factory cable without the terminal attached. Seems the prior owner of my wagon jimmy-rigged a terminal into the bottom of it by screwing it in! I will try what you suggested tomorrow. That volt meter may uncover the mystery of the max!

thanks a bunch!

Alan W

#32

In earlier posts on this thread Al S. wrote:

If the starter motor runs but the starter does not turn the engine, it's possible that the starter drive has failed

also

"Not engaging the flywheel" means the starter motor is running. but not turning the engine?

The starter motor spins ("whirrrrrr" or "wheeeee" sound.), not the clunk and silence. More like clunk, then whirrrr. Based on Al's posts it sounds like I either need a new starter drive or a new solenoid. Either way, a new starter. I called Nissan, it is special order at $219 and it will take about a week to get it. What should I exect to pay for this? Kragen has one with a lifetime warrantly for $135 and I can get it next business day.
You guys warned me about EXIDE, I heeded the warning and got the A/C
Delco battery.

#33

asavage wrote:(heavy gauge battery cables)
If you cannot find it there, where can you find it?
I think that you will have to have it fabricated. Parts stores do not have battery cables that are 00 gauge -- well, not around here, anyway. The last two I've needed I've had fabricated by my local auto electric guy. He does great work -- and he's not cheap.

Didn't Interstate Batteries used to sell/ship custom-built 2/0 cables? Try 1-(800)- 562-3212 and ask for the accessories department.

#34

Try pep- boys for the 2/0 cable, Thats where I was able to get my 2/0 cable to replace my ground wire. Quality is fairly good, everything is tinned instead of the new crimp style that I am not a big fan of. Most parts stores really dont carry the heavy 2/0 cable though, it might of been just one local branch of the franchise. I dont think they came in red, I remember one or two of the red + stickers in my ground wire package, ill swing by the buffalo pep boys to see if they carry a 2/0 red on monday.

Just a word of the wise, If you are replacing the ground wire, you have to buy a 2 foot jumper section to go from the block to the battery tray connection for a body grnd. I doubt that it would have a problem with just sending the power thru the mounts, but it was set up that way stock, and OEM knows best.

I might actually try calling interstate, and seeing if I can get a custom made positive side cable, if I cant find a suitible FLAPS replacement. I want something where the alt and fusibile link connections are soldered in and not just bolted to the clamp, gives it a nice "I actually done this right" look. Some battery clamps are loaded with so much garbage I wonder if any power actually gets to the starter (like mine)

#35

If the motor is making a whirring noise while holding the key in START, the fault is in the starter drive's one-way clutch. You can forget checking the cables with the VM. If you had a bad connection, the engine would crank slowly, or the starter would be silent, or it would give the dreaded "click click click click".

If the starter motor is running, the problem is not a cable.

Cost: the quality of rebuilt automotive parts varies very widely. In 1998, I paid about $175 for a Nissan rebuilt starter ("rebuilt by Hitachi for Nissan"). It, too, was special order and was about a week to obtain. It is still working.

NAPA's Raylock Premium rebuilds have a lifetime warranty. NAPA also carries a non-Premium rebuild, a Bosch and a Beck-Arnley rebuild. When I was "in the business", we standardized on selling only the Raylock Premium, because it was rare to have to warranty one.

The cost of the Kragen/Checker/Schucks starter is tempting. It will be clean and shiny. Whether it's truly a bargain I can't say.

It's good to hear that Interstate & Pep Boys offer 00 cables.

#36

One more thing which probably confirms the culprit and what Al had previously posted

If the motor is making a whirring noise while holding the key in START, the fault is in the starter drive's one-way clutch

We have not even been using the key in the ignition but bypassing it right at the starter. Furthermore, we took the starter apart and reinstalled only the front part of the starter and slid this gear into it

and engaged the flywheel. While a friend was holding in the bendix I turned the engine and he reported the gear moving.

I spoke to my friend at NAPA regarding the RayLock. He said it was $199, which is more that Kragen's AutoLite at $135, but is NAPA better quality? I may lean towards NAPA as I have a friend there and he may help me avoid potential problems in the future, should the starter fail.

Thanks to all for the help.

Alan W.

#37

asavage wrote:The cost of the Kragen/Checker/Schucks starter is tempting. It will be clean and shiny. Whether it's truly a bargain I can't say.

I can say. It's a bargain if you're lucky. Meaning they are lacking in quality control. Shiny and clean yes. I bought one from Schucks last winter because they promised the fastest delivery and were the most convenient to me in the then icy conditions w/ no wheels. They also honored the internet price which saved another ~$20-30. Also was lifetime warranty w/ free tow. (More on this later.)

Installed, worked great, spun the engine quickly, starting the engine fastest I'd ever seen it. Within the first few weeks the (shiny & clean) solenoid failed and I notified them I needed a replacement. A bit of persuasion got them to order the replacement before I returned the failed starter to them.

Installed the first replacement, noticed it spun the engine quite a bit slower than the first starter they gave me. IIRC, there are two wattage ratings on the diesel starters, lower KW rating for the '81. I think this second starter must have been one of the lower power ones.

Asked for a replacement to the slow-cranking replacement, when I went to pick it up they told me if this one had problems they would only refund my money and not honor any more warranty (what about my core I returned?) So much for their lifetime warranty. Anyway this second replacement cranks quickly and seems to be hanging in there 11 months later.

I would have rather spent more money for a starter that did not require so much work on my part. That upper mounting nut is not so easy to get a wrench on and was the worst part of the process.

#38

SoCalanz wrote:. . . we took the starter apart and reinstalled only the front part of the starter and slid this gear into it and engaged the flywheel. While a friend was holding in the bendix I turned the engine and he reported the gear moving.

The starter drive contains a roller/sprag clutch. It can seem to work OK until you try to put full torque on it. Sure sounds like a bad starter drive. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled.

I spoke to my friend at NAPA regarding the RayLock. He said it was $199 . . .

That's correct. NAPAOnline shows the same price for RAY446013 , $199 + $33 core

. . . which is more that Kragen's AutoLite at $135, but is NAPA better quality?

The Rayloc Premium is, yes. The Rayloc standard probably isn't much better than a starter sourced from Kragen. In NAPA part number parlance, the "consumer" (cheap, competitive) versions have a number two in the lead position of the part number. Stay away from any NAPA part whose number begins with a "2".

This is from that page linked above:

"Features & Benefits:Drive - 100% New Pinion Gear, Springs,
Cap and Rollers."

That's the starter drive. It doesn't mention the solenoid, though.

These are fairly robust starters. My original starter with ~95k miles on it in 1998 was doing the same thing yours is, but only one in four starts. That's why I changed it out for the Nissan (Hitachi) rebuild that's in it now. It seems to be that the solenoid dies first (at least with mine). Yours and mine are the only ones I know about where the drive has gone bad. The motor itself is probably still OK.

#39

I will be heading over to NAPA first thing in the morning on your advice.

Thanks again, and seasons's greetings (already?)

#40

I might be able to find you a new starter drive. Probably under $50. NAPA has no listing, but I may be able to use a local source. Let me know if you're interested. Because you are already intimate with getting it in and out, this could save you a few bux (but you are repairing the starter, not rebuilding it).

#41

I think I'll have the starter issue taken care of shortly but I think the funky terminal I now have needs some attention, too. I went to Pep Boys here in L.A. for a positive batt cable and the computer called for a cable the size of my Z's cable, which seems to be 1/2 the size of the Max's. I left but am wondering if I can put an HD commercial terminal that clamps down with two bolts at the end of the round cap on the end of my POS cable? Seems to me it would work especially when all FLAPS is going to do is try to sell what looks like a wire compared to what I need. Any thoughts?

remember my mess:

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I would like it to more closely resemble this without breaking me:

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The starter I need and feel i have to invest a good amount to get good quality, is by far the most expensive starter I have ever gotten on an older car.

#42

SoCalanz wrote:I think I'll have the starter issue taken care of shortly but I think the funky terminal I now have needs some attention, too. I went to Pep Boys here in L.A. for a positive batt cable and the computer called for a cable the size of my Z's cable, which seems to be 1/2 the size of the Max's. I left but am wondering if I can put an HD commercial terminal that clamps down with two bolts at the end of the round cap on the end of my POS cable? Seems to me it would work especially when all FLAPS is going to do is try to sell what looks like a wire compared to what I need. Any thoughts?

The z car battery cable has got to be smaller than the maxima's, it spans a 1 foot gap.

I think they sell them by the inches, with the terminals tinned to the ends of the wire. Just whip out a measuring tape and get one that is slightly bigger, with the lowest gauge available.

By the commercial terminal, are you talking about these?

I generally advise against them, they only last a couple of years because of the dirt and corrosion that can get in it. For any connection that I feel like doing right, I would always solder the connections together.

You could also use a eyelet of the proper size, and solder the connection, and connect it to one of these, The Gold plating on this would be great for some underhood bling-bling LOL

It depends on what you want to do, and If you have extra cable left over on the positive side, go for it, you could repair it or buy a new cable, its all the same stuff, a good quality repair can last longer than a new cable itself.

#43

You could also use a eyelet of the proper size, and solder the connection, and connect it to one of these, The Gold plating on this would be great for some underhood bling-bling LOL

That is a good idea. It could be the Max's Mr. T Starter Kit. I have to do some research on it. This my first diesel car and I have never seen a battery cable this thick. It appears the actual cable is in great condition except the terminal, which seems to be broken off. An OEM replacment, or similar would be best but I may have to do something in the interim. However, I will not be doing what the last guy did! On the stock terminal is the cap pressed in some way or soldered? I will have to look at mine to see if I can figure out how it was installed.

#44

The OEM terminal is made of a lead alloy and is swedged -- it starts with a hole large enough to put the cable's end in, and then pressed and deformed with enough pressure that the lead is actually deformed into and around the outside strands.

Investigate your local auto electric shops to find one that will swedge a new terminal onto your cable. The new terminal will not be the same lead alloy, but will be swedged with enough pressure to crush the copper strands compactly enough to give a good connection. You can Dremel off the remains of the OEM terminal, but chances are the best you can do is to hacksaw off the cable from the terminal right at the edge of the lead and settle for the cable being 2" shorter.

The "two bolt style clamp on" terminal is designed for a temporary/emergency repair. It will get you by but will not last. If you go that route, there exists a larger size that can accommodate your larger cable, but many FLAPS do not stock it. Here's one installed on the '83 Sedan ("Autoworks Sedan") that I recently bought and sold to member M Hartz:

Again, these are not a good long-term repair, but they cost about $3 and can get you by. And the standard size for gassers will not accommodate the larger Maxima cable, unless you chop up the end of the cable to fit, which will make fixing it correctly later even harder.

#45

I bought a HD commercial/RV terminal, less than 4 bucks. I realize it is
a quick fix and I will have to do something later. I dropped of my starter this morning and should have it back Wed. morning. It is amazing the FLAPS all tell me the original wires on the car were a certain size which is way thinner than the one you or I have. Needless to say, they were no help. I saw the clamp kassim503 has but the part that crimps onto the cable does not seem large enough. Also, his cable seems much thinner.

I will try to get it running first and them look into an having a local electric shop make me a magic cable.

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