Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

SD diesels were widely available in the US in the 1981-86 Datsun/Nissan 720 pickups, and in Canada through '87 in the D21 pickup.

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buckshot
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 years ago
Location: Ocala, Florida

Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#1

Post by buckshot » 3 years ago

Greetings folks,
I have had this SD 22 sitting in storage for a number of years. It ran well when stored, Wheeled it out, changed the filters, removed and cleaned out the pan, added new oil, cranked it over a number of times over several days to insure oil is being circulated throughout the engine prior to start up. I picked up some fresh fuel and began to try to bleed the fuel system. I bled and got fuel to the two bleeder screws but can not get the fuel to any of the four devices mounted to the top of the injector pump housing. When I loosen these devices ( sorry I don't know the tech name for them ) I get fuel to them but can not get fuel to the top after tightening them back down. My hand
bleeder pump has a top seal leaking but with constant pumping I know I am getting, what I feel should be, enough fuel pressure to create a normal bleeding process. I also
tried to use the injection pump to get fuel past these devices but no go. Any help you folks can offer would be helpful.
Have fun,
buckshot 8)
Take time to smell the roses before you end up under them ! ! !

Road rage can be hazardous to your health ! ! !

waynosworld
Posts: 517
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Vancouver Washington USA

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#2

Post by waynosworld » 3 years ago

buckshot wrote:Greetings folks,
I have had this SD 22 sitting in storage for a number of years. It ran well when stored, Wheeled it out, changed the filters, removed and cleaned out the pan, added new oil, cranked it over a number of times over several days to insure oil is being circulated throughout the engine prior to start up. I picked up some fresh fuel and began to try to bleed the fuel system. I bled and got fuel to the two bleeder screws but can not get the fuel to any of the four devices mounted to the top of the injector pump housing. When I loosen these devices ( sorry I don't know the tech name for them ) I get fuel to them but can not get fuel to the top after tightening them back down. My hand
bleeder pump has a top seal leaking but with constant pumping I know I am getting, what I feel should be, enough fuel pressure to create a normal bleeding process. I also
tried to use the injection pump to get fuel past these devices but no go. Any help you folks can offer would be helpful.
Have fun,
buckshot 8)
OK, I believe the way it works is that when the key is off the fuel is cut off, so you can pump that primer all day long and nothing is going to get by the injection pump.
Now if you either remove the injection pump control arm from the injection pump and let it move to the run position, then fuel can get by the injection pump, as it is in the run position, you can also remove the wire that goes to the oil pressure switch on the block behind the oil cooler down low, then when you turn on the key the injection pump controller should move to the start or run position, it cannot do that with the wire connected to the switch/sensor, as the system is made to not start until you have oil pressure, so if you remove that wire from the sensor, it cannot tell you don't have oil pressure.
The primer does prime the system, just not anything past the injection pump injector feed lines, and maybe that one line that goes to the front of the injection pump, I always open that banjo fitting up at the front of the pump and bleed the air out of it.
I hope this helps you.
I know the voices are not real,
but they have some really good ideas.

buckshot
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 years ago
Location: Ocala, Florida

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#3

Post by buckshot » 3 years ago

Right now there is NO control rod on the engine. I am going to try to find one for the future use. There is also no power to the engine. Everything is being done mechanically. I have been able to prime the system using the primer pump and have removed air up to the two primer points on the injection pump. Where I am
having a problem is I can't get any flow past the four spring loaded devices threaded into the top of the injection pump. I don't know what they are called but the
injector lines come out of the top of them and continue to each injector. I need to find out why I am not able to obtain flow past these four devices. If I loosen any
of the four I can get flow but as soon as I screw them down tight I get no flow ? ? ?
Take time to smell the roses before you end up under them ! ! !

Road rage can be hazardous to your health ! ! !

waynosworld
Posts: 517
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Vancouver Washington USA

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#4

Post by waynosworld » 3 years ago

buckshot wrote:Right now there is NO control rod on the engine. I am going to try to find one for the future use. There is also no power to the engine. Everything is being done mechanically. I have been able to prime the system using the primer pump and have removed air up to the two primer points on the injection pump. Where I am
having a problem is I can't get any flow past the four spring loaded devices threaded into the top of the injection pump. I don't know what they are called but the
injector lines come out of the top of them and continue to each injector. I need to find out why I am not able to obtain flow past these four devices. If I loosen any
of the four I can get flow but as soon as I screw them down tight I get no flow ? ? ?
So what your saying is if you remove the injection lines and turn the engine over no fuel squirts out of them 4 outlets, because if it does squirt out then re-install the injection lines then all you have to do is turn it over till it starts, but you have to have the glow plugs warmed up for it to start.
So I would turn it over till it hits/tries to hit, then cycle the glow plugs again, meaning give them power for at least 30 seconds if they are normal/regular glow plugs, then turn it over till it starts.
You cannot prime past the injectors, it takes a lot of pressure to open them, more pressure than a primer pump will create.
Sometimes it takes a while for all the air to be forced out of the injector lines, it doesn't just happen by priming the system.
I know the voices are not real,
but they have some really good ideas.

buckshot
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 years ago
Location: Ocala, Florida

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#5

Post by buckshot » 3 years ago

yes, no fuel comes out. what I am trying to explain is I can't get fuel to the injectors at all. I have tried using the hand pump and the rotation of the engine. I can get fuel to the top of the injector pump housing where the four devices are threaded into the top of the pump housing. If I loosen any of these four devices I can get fuel to pass but once these spring loaded devices are tightened back down no fuel will pass through them to the injector fuel delivery tubing. Do you know where I can down load rebuild info and obtain a rebuild kit in order to rebuild this injection pump if necessary ?
Take time to smell the roses before you end up under them ! ! !

Road rage can be hazardous to your health ! ! !

handcannon
Posts: 57
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#6

Post by handcannon » 3 years ago

waynosworld wrote:
buckshot wrote:Right now there is NO control rod on the engine. I am going to try to find one for the future use. There is also no power to the engine. Everything is being done mechanically. I have been able to prime the system using the primer pump and have removed air up to the two primer points on the injection pump. Where I am
having a problem is I can't get any flow past the four spring loaded devices threaded into the top of the injection pump. I don't know what they are called but the
injector lines come out of the top of them and continue to each injector. I need to find out why I am not able to obtain flow past these four devices. If I loosen any
of the four I can get flow but as soon as I screw them down tight I get no flow ? ? ?
So what your saying is if you remove the injection lines and turn the engine over no fuel squirts out of them 4 outlets, because if it does squirt out then re-install the injection lines then all you have to do is turn it over till it starts, but you have to have the glow plugs warmed up for it to start.
So I would turn it over till it hits/tries to hit, then cycle the glow plugs again, meaning give them power for at least 30 seconds if they are normal/regular glow plugs, then turn it over till it starts.
You cannot prime past the injectors, it takes a lot of pressure to open them, more pressure than a primer pump will create.
Sometimes it takes a while for all the air to be forced out of the injector lines, it doesn't just happen by priming the system.
To start with, you have loosened the injector supply lines from the top of the IP. Have you gone up to the injector, loosened the injector line to make sure you have fuel up that far?

Have you used the glow plugs like has been suggested? It is possible that the glow plugs are not working. Have you checked that? Quick glow plugs may easily become burned out if you try to use them manually. I have Beck-Arnley numbers for manual operated glow plugs. #176-1034 for 1981-82 SD-22, and #176-1040 for 19893-85 SD-25. NGK #1232 (maybe Y-112TS) is for 1981-82 SD-22 QGS type 11 V (quick glow?), and NGK 1132 (Y-112RS-1) QGS type 12 V (quick glow).

I don't remember where I got this information, but I did use the B-A 176-1034 to put together a manual glow system for my SD-22.

Also, make sure your battery is up to maximum charge. A battery that is not up to full charge may not crank the starter over fast enough to start a diesel. My 1994 Chevy with a 6.5 needs two batteries to crank over a motor that size. If they are not fully charged the motor will not start. The glow plugs take a huge amount of 12 V to get them warm, maybe as much as the starter. Consequently you have a double hit on the battery, glows, and then starter.

Another thing, the oil pressure switch does need to be disconnected for the fuel to be allowed electrically through the IP since without oil pressure the fuel will not be allowed through the IP. Under normal operation the oil pressure switch is connected, and temporarily bypassed, by the electrical control box when starting the motor. So, if you don,t have all the control boxes, the oil pressure switch will stop the fuel from flowing through the IP.

I have an SD-22 that is setting on the concrete floor. By a lot of researching, and experimenting, I was able to get the motor to fire up without any of the electrical control boxes. If after checking and doing all these things you should get it running. Whether you get it running or not let us know the outcome.

Don

buckshot
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 years ago
Location: Ocala, Florida

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#7

Post by buckshot » 3 years ago

Don,
In answer to your question Yes, I have loosened the supply lines I can hand pump fuel flow up too the spring loaded devices that are threaded into the top
of the injection pump... when they are loosened. Once these four spring loaded devices are again tightened down there is no fuel flow through or past them? ? ?
I am going to get a 12 volt fuel pump and attempt to use it to maintain 4 to 8 lbs of pressure to see if i can get fuel to the injectors. There is no electrical
power to the components of the engine at all. I am not trying to use or be concerned with the glow plugs as I can not even get fuel to the injectors yet. All I know
about the glow plugs is that they worked last time I needed them. Other than that they should be a non issue at this point. Everything is mechanical . The battery is near new and I have a battery charger hooked up to it when I am cranking the engine.
I will have to digest your last paragraph in that I have no electrical connections to the IP and will study how the lack of oil pressure would have any effect on the
ability of the IP to pump fuel to the injectors. I do have a mechanical oil gauge that shows me about 30 lbs while using the starter to get fire and smoke This engine is on a roll around cart on the floor. It have NO electrical connections or boxes attached to it at all, except for the starter. Everything is being done mechanically.......? ? ? Does anyone know the Tech name for what I am calling the four threaded spring loaded devices that are threaded in to the top of the IP that the injector feed lines are connected to ???? Thanks Don, for your input.
Have fun,
buckshot
Take time to smell the roses before you end up under them ! ! !

Road rage can be hazardous to your health ! ! !

plenzen
Posts: 868
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#8

Post by plenzen » 3 years ago

The things I think you are referring to are the delivery valves that the injector lines are fastened to on the pump.
It sounds like the stop lever is in the "stop" position not allowing any fuel to be sent to the injectors. That's how these engines are stopped. The fuel is simply shut off. Move the stop lever to the run position and you should be good to go. You will not be able to to pump fuel to the injectors using the hand pump. All you need do is fill the pump with fuel. Once it's full, and it sounds that it is, you then crank the engine to pump fuel up to the injectors. That being said. Do not crank the engine with the lever in the run position unless you mean to start the engine (glow plugs required). Long cranking with not starting and the lever in the run position will fill the cylinders with fuel. This may lead to hydro lock if you crank long enough. This is a bad thing. !
The system is self bleeding and will purge the air by itself while it's running. Make sure you have the return line into the top of whatever fuel tank you are using.

DO NOT USE ANY STARTING FLUID OF ANY KIND to get it to fire. You can use a blow dryer set on high or a hot air heat gun blowing into the top of the intake if your glow plugs are weak. Once you've run it and it will smooth out as it idles and purges the air you should not have a fuel issue from there.

HTH
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN

handcannon
Posts: 57
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#9

Post by handcannon » 3 years ago

buckshot wrote:Don,
In answer to your question Yes, I have loosened the supply lines I can hand pump fuel flow up too the spring loaded devices that are threaded into the top
of the injection pump... when they are loosened. Once these four spring loaded devices are again tightened down there is no fuel flow through or past them? ? ?
I am going to get a 12 volt fuel pump and attempt to use it to maintain 4 to 8 lbs of pressure to see if i can get fuel to the injectors. There is no electrical
power to the components of the engine at all. I am not trying to use or be concerned with the glow plugs as I can not even get fuel to the injectors yet. All I know
about the glow plugs is that they worked last time I needed them. Other than that they should be a non issue at this point. Everything is mechanical . The battery is near new and I have a battery charger hooked up to it when I am cranking the engine.
I will have to digest your last paragraph in that I have no electrical connections to the IP and will study how the lack of oil pressure would have any effect on the
ability of the IP to pump fuel to the injectors. I do have a mechanical oil gauge that shows me about 30 lbs while using the starter to get fire and smoke This engine is on a roll around cart on the floor. It have NO electrical connections or boxes attached to it at all, except for the starter. Everything is being done mechanically.......? ? ? Does anyone know the Tech name for what I am calling the four threaded spring loaded devices that are threaded in to the top of the IP that the injector feed lines are connected to ???? Thanks Don, for your input.
Have fun,
buckshot
I may have miscommunicated about the injector lines. I wasn't thinking about where the lines are fastened to the IP. Instead I was thinking about where the injector lines attach to the injectors, just before where the injectors thread into the head.

There is a mechanical fuel pump on the lower part of the IP. If it is working properly it will supply all the fuel needed to the IP. An electrical fuel pump might help with initial bleeding of the fuel system, but the only experience I have with that is on a 90's era GM diesel where they are stock and supply all the fuel all the time to the IP.

After spending some time thinking about it I might inadvertently have given you wrong information about the injection pump controller. There is no electrical connection directly on the IP. On the side of the block, under the IP, is a device that looks like a windshield wiper motor. It is a motor and gearbox with a shaft and arm that comes out of the gearbox. From this shaft/arm is a rod that connects to a control lever on the side of the IP.

This motor is wired into an electrical box that is mounted onto the inner fender of the pickup. This electrical box is connected to the ignition switch and the oil pressure sender. When the ignition switch is turned and held to the start position of the switch, the IP control motor runs/turns and moves the IP control lever to the start position. As soon as the motor fires the ignition switch is released and the ignition switch automatically returns to the run position. When this happens the IP control motor automatically moves the IP control lever to the run position because of the position of the ignition switch.

If you don't have the electrical control box, as I didn't, the position of the control lever on the side of the IP is very important. Spend some time getting to fully know the operation of this control lever.

Like the ignition switch start position, the start position of the IP control lever is spring loaded to automatically return it to the run position. Turn this IP control lever as far as it will rotate clockwise to the right. This will be the start position. When you let go of the IP control lever it will automatically rotate a little ways counterclockwise to the run position, just like the ignition switch (spring loaded). Now, from the run position of the IP control lever manually rotate the lever counterclockwise until it stops. This is the stop position of the IP, and this lever will stay in this position until physically moved. In this position no fuel can flow through the IP.

So, in a counterclockwise move from the start position you will have START, then counterclockwise move to RUN (spring loaded move), then move to STOP, which will be as far counterclockwise as the lever arm will move.

I hope this makes more sense to you and will help you get the motor started without the electrical control box. Without the electrical control box the oil pressure switch will have no function other than making the gauge read what the oil pressure is.

Oh by the way, when I tried to start my motor it was setting on a concrete floor (supported so it wouldn't lay over), and hooked up to a battery using a jumper cable. This proved to be an inadequate electrical hook up. I ended up using my pickup (running a CS 144 alternator) and two sets of jumpers, one to each battery in my pickup. I came to the conclusion that a single jumper cable wasn't allowing enough juice through to turn the starter over fast enough. Two jumper cables, one to each battery on my pickup was enough to turn the starter over fast enough. The jumper cables were not as big of gauge as the stock battery cable.

Don

buckshot
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 years ago
Location: Ocala, Florida

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#10

Post by buckshot » 3 years ago

Hi, It's me again,
OK guys, again I want to thank all you folks for your valued input. I think I have found my problem. I uncapped the side cover of the I P pump found that the cam which
operates the four lifters is operating each of the lifters as it should. The problem is that the four return springs and pressure valves that the lifters operate are all stuck in the up or open position. I can not get the spring loaded pressure valves to release and drop down to make contact with the lifters. when the lifters cycle by lowering into the bore there is a large gap between the adjustment (top)of the lifter and return spring base. When the cam and lifter cycle, each of the four lifters rises and barley makes contact with the spring loaded pressure valve. By just barley touching the pressure valves there is no movement of the spring loaded pressure valves there for no fuel movement or pressure. All four of the spring loaded pressure valves remain stuck in the open position. Does anyone have a source where I can get a copy of
the pictures and text of this KIKI I P pump ? I have a Datsun/Nissan shop manual but there is nothing in the manual that shows any brake down on the pump. I need to
find out how I can release the pressure valves to travel their full length and start creating fuel pressure. Have any of you guys run into this before ? I checked with a local diesel pump shop and their advice was to give them my bank account number. At 73 and on fixed income I must do what I can to make it run. Thanks again to all you guys for your help. 8)
Have fun,
buckshot
Take time to smell the roses before you end up under them ! ! !

Road rage can be hazardous to your health ! ! !

plenzen
Posts: 868
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#11

Post by plenzen » 3 years ago

Hopefully this link below may help you.
If you can get the rack to move a bit by carefully trying to move it with a screwdriver back and forth while cranking the engine and spraying everything down with a good penetrating oil the plungers may fall back down. They are stuck in their bores. Using some Stanadyne Lubricity formula in the fuel will aid in keeping them moving freely. Everything you spray in there will be washed out as the engine runs. Maybe even try some Stanadyne additive as a penetrating oil. Take the injector lines off the top of the pump and lay a rag over them so you can see if it's started to pump again. Keep your hands away as the pressures are enough to push the fuel into and under your skin.

Here is a link that may have some useful info in it for you.

http://www.utterpower.com/a-frozen-inje ... hat-to-do/

Good.luck and keep us posted how you make out.
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN

buckshot
Posts: 24
Joined: 9 years ago
Location: Ocala, Florida

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#12

Post by buckshot » 3 years ago

OK Y'all,
It's update time. Thanks Plenzer, for your advice. I used 50/50 ATF and Acetone and filled up each of of the plunger bores. I let it sit for a day or so. when I got back I saw that three of the four plungers had moved down under the spring tension and were cycling. The fourth had not freed up. I tried tapping on the plunger but no go. I filled the plunger bores back up. The next day I came back to find the remaining plunger had freed up and was functioning. I hooked up my jury rigged fuel delivery system using a 12 volt fuel pump and went through the bleeding process. After getting fuel up to the injectors I began to get some gray and black smoke out the exhaust but it would not fire. I pulled out the four glow plugs and found that two of them were not working. At this time I am waiting for the two glow plugs that had to be ordered.
Question, does the SD 22 need the use of glow plugs when starting all the time or just when the ambient temperature drops to what ever temp ? ? ? In transplanting this engine into a 2000 Sonoma I had planned to just use a spring loaded toggle switch with a red indicator light to operate the ( NGK 1232 ) glow plugs.
Have fun,
buckshot
Take time to smell the roses before you end up under them ! ! !

Road rage can be hazardous to your health ! ! !

handcannon
Posts: 57
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#13

Post by handcannon » 3 years ago

I don't know for sure about the SD22, but here is what I have found by experience with my GM 6.5 since it is also an indirect injection (IDI) motor. My 6.5 is the first year they were computer controlled.

When the motor is cold, no matter the time of year, I always allow the glow plugs to operate. The temp sensor/computer does vary the glow plug operation time somewhat according to the outside temperature though. Much warmer weather does reduce somewhat the time the computer calls for. After the motor is warmed up thoroughly, operating the glows is not normally necessary. If the motor is warm, but has sat for a short time without being run, I will allow the glows to operate. However, the computer will cut the glow time quite a bit.

If you follow the pattern that the computer uses (in my pickup) and manually glow in a similar manner you should see successful starts most of the time. Usually the unsuccessful starts will be connected to a low battery, or very cold weather that probably needs a second glow.

That being said, as a four cylinder motor, each glow plug is one quarter of the equation for starting a cold motor. I was able to easily change 3 of the four non-working plugs on my SD22 and get it started while setting on my shop floor. However, it was reluctant to easily start with one quarter of the glows not heating up the pre-cup. I also used a running/charging motor in my pickup, and heavy duty jumper cables, to get the starter to turn over fast enough to start the motor. Just using a battery and heavy duty jumpers was not quite enough.

As was mentioned previously, a hair dryer supplying warmed up intake air, might help get the motor started, although I have never tried this, so???

Don

waynosworld
Posts: 517
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Vancouver Washington USA

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#14

Post by waynosworld » 3 years ago

You need good glow plugs to start the engine when not warmed up.

The proper glow plugs for a US version SD22 take 30 seconds to a minute to warm up the first time, they are a slow to warm up type, I have had the wrong type sold to me in the past, it started up great the first time as they got smoking hot, but I had to use vise-grips to get them out of the engine as they had blown up like balloons at the tip, so you have to have the proper type glow plugs and they need to all be the same type, fast type glow plugs take way less time to warm up.
I know the voices are not real,
but they have some really good ideas.

plenzen
Posts: 868
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

Re: Need help with not being able to get fuel to injectors.

#15

Post by plenzen » 3 years ago

If you can order some of the CN 433 Chrysler Nissan marine style glow plugs they are about the most bullet proof ones around. That being said, they take a while to heat up, but, pretty durable for long burn times. You can even keep the button pushed for 10 or 20 seconds after it starts to help smooth out the idle.
But like Wayne says, it needs glow plugs all the time .
If you want to run it you can stick a hot air heat gun into the intake and give it a minute or so on high and them crank it, it should go. Once it's running keep it there are a few seconds and it will smooth out and you can let the fuel system bleed itself and check for oil leaks etc etc.
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN

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