** ASTM BIODIESEL vs. Raw VEGGIE OILS **

[philip]

Here it is: Elsbett duothermic combustion system.

BTW: I emailed them the whole page of references you quoted from Iowa State Univ and asked them what they had to counter it. We'll see.

I got a response from Mr Elsbett himself and all he could say was that he offered warranty on converted engines. I think this speaks for itself ...

Indeed Elsbett's response speaks volumes.

Quite some years ago, I developed an attitude about products and warranties.

I ask myself, "Would I still buy this .... were there no warranty?"

When the answer is no, particuarly if the answer is a resounding NO!, then I walk away.

[philip]

I stumbled across this elderly thread on MSN:

Link: "Steal Some Heat ..."

"From: KnuckleheadFlatbed (Galen) Sent: 2/5/2006 10:55 AM

I dare say I don't think a single individual in the world has burned more WVO than me and I cannot agree enough with all of the above. Working out the kinks is expensive and even after they are worked out you will continue to pay with the increased wear on the motor. You might break even. Much better would be to make a small continuous biodiesel processor (using new oil). By small I mean something that it would fit on a card table. A small, very high quality processing device would be much more worthy of a senior engineering project. To date, the variables in WVO make true engineering impractical if not impossible."

[philip]

SNIP

Finally we come to Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO). I have yet to see a professional cost/benefit analysis that includes conversion costs, expected break-even mileage for the investment, personal time spent, and compromised component life costs. NASTY things (like engine damage due to oil dilution, injection pump damage, injector damage, increasesd emissions) DO happen to the fuel systems running WVO and to the engines run on WVO due to inpurities, acids, and byproducts so often found in WVO. So I relegate WVO to a labor of love and a crusade against the Establishment.

Well ... eventually the Internet yields a nugget.

Here is one WVO'r who kept some track of his WVO costs.


"OOP Costs:
12VDC Pony Pump$50.00
Assd tubing & fittings 25.00
3 55gal drums 35.00
Goldenrod filter 25.00
Drum Pump 20.00
______
Sub Total $155.00

Misc goodies
steel, filter material, etc. 45.00
_________
TOTAL MATERIAL COST $200.00

WVO collected
and filtered to date: 115gal

Direct cost/gal:$1.73/gal

Of course, this doesn't take into consideration the costs associated with using my old beater pickup to go collect the oil and the personal time it takes to actually do the collection and processing either. I guess I'd add something like 20%-30% to cover those intangibles.
__________________
Searching for the last straw...
R Leo"

Intangibles? If you paid somebody to drive around collecting used oil (analogus to paying an oil company to drill, pump, deliver for refinement crude oil), not to mention probable engine life reduction, then I'd make a much higher estimate than 20-30%.

[asavage]

A surprising drive today . . .

I don't have a whole lot of direct experience with running WVO vehicles (though I do have some experience with ones that have died).

I have a rather sensitive sense of smell -- it runs in my family.

I drive 16 miles to work, one-way. I live in a very rural area. About seven miles into my drive today, a gold Gen1 Jetta diesel pulled out in front of me from the Marrowstone Island turnoff, plenty ahead of me. After a few seconds, I noticed the telltale smell of fried foods. I smiled, because I'm a vocal booster of (ASTM D-5761) biodiesel in this area.

But . . . after a few moments, the smell got a lot stronger. Puzzled, I watched the Jetta's tailpipe for excess smoke, but there was just a normal 18" plume on the mild hills. Hmmm . . . I thought, "Maybe it's not biodiesel, maybe it's straight vegetable oil; if he pulls off somewhere, maybe I'll stop and ask the driver."

After another mile, we both come to a stop sign, and I can read the bumper stickers, and one of them says:

"Running on pure vegetable oil. www.elsbett.com"



Now the strong smell of fried foods makes sense.

So, I back off 1/4 mile, since he's still moving in the direction I'm going. A couple of miles on, I began getting just a bit nauseous. I thought to myself, "Nah, must be psychosomatic," and I backed off at least 1/2 mile. Several cars pulled into traffic between us. I still didn't feel right, so I pulled over, counted to thirty, then pulled back onto the road. That did it, after a few more miles I felt better.

My question is: in general, does a WVO/SVO engine produce a much stronger smell than ASTM biodiesel?

[asavage]

Told above story to Boss, he tells me that, coincidentally, he met a manager of the local transit authority last night at a social function, and they talked alternative fuels . . . they went to B20 in all diesel transit units two years ago. Manager says that SVO was considered, but "emissions too dirty" to utilize.

Admittedly, this is very much secondhand.

My own contact into same authority says that B20 has worked out very well for them.

[philip]

Told above story to Boss, he tells me that, coincidentally, he met a manager of the local transit authority last night at a social function, and they talked alternative fuels . . . they went to B20 in all diesel transit units two years ago. Manager says that SVO was considered, but "emissions too dirty" to utilize. SNIP.

The irony. SVO/WVO is touted by its disciples to be "free" and "green" yet ... it is quite the opposit on both counts.

[asavage]

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/car/392174576.html

300TD 1980 mercedes diesel/veg oil wagon--needs engine - $1000
Reply to: sale-392174576@craigslist.org
Date: 2007-08-08, 9:06AM PDT

I put lots of $$ into this yellow wagon. Veggie oil (separate tank, switch, in-line heater) conversion [. . . ] He just konked out overnight. needs engine! Car is on SE Alder between 7th and 8th, take a look.

MAKE ME AN OFFER

* This item has been posted by-owner.
* Location: se portland

And this showed up recently on the door of our biodiesel trailer:

What that doesn't say is that it really hasn't been run exclusively on BD, it's really run exclusively on WVO.

Two more toasted diesels.

Maybe they died for reasons unrelated to the "fuel" -- and maybe the "fuel" had a good deal to do with their demise.

[redmondjp]

Over at TDIclub.com where I spend some time (since I own one, my only remaining diesel vehicle ), there's a good thread on a late-model VW diesel that was apparently done in by WVO as well, and the owner of the car is brutally honest (refreshing) about the whole story--here's the link:

forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=186108

I'm with you on this one, Al. Take that WVO, SVO and what-have-you and brew it into some ASTM-certified biodiesel and drive with confidence, knowing that you aren't destroying your engine. Same thing with what you eat--take that movie Supersize Me, where the guy eats only at McDonald's for an entire month. Sure he's alive, but the doctor flat-out tells him that he's going to shorten his life. Good-quality fuel is critical to just about everything that uses it.

[philip]

I'm with you on this one, Al. Take that WVO, SVO and what-have-you and brew it into some ASTM-certified biodiesel and drive with confidence, knowing that you aren't destroying your engine.

"... aren't ..." WHAT?

To be CLEAR in your message, you should mean "are".

[philip]

forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=186108

" I will conclude my tale with a comment about WVO. I thought I was doing everything right but I damaged my car. Some mistakes I know I made were I didn't increase my oil change intervals until it was too late. WVO permeates your crankcase oil and does not burn off so you can have loss of lubricity. Also water may have still been in oil evidenced by the blown off piston parts.

I think it was Drivbiwire that said that any money you save by running WVO will eventually be given back. At the time I thought he was a scrooge (well he is ). Well check this out.

Over two years I have saved about $5000 running WVO. In the last three months I have replaced a rear seal ($600), a turbo twice ($1400 VNT-15 times 2), new used engine ($2000), $1800 labor total to three different people, plus me chasing my tail for three months changing filters, fuel line, pulling injectors, etc.

Please dont hurl criticisms my way. I tried WVO. it didn't work for me in the end, and i gave it all back. For you WVO folks out there, I will only say I hope you have better luck.

To end I will quote Peter at TDI Parts. He was impressed with my WVO system at a GTG. When he heard my problems he said "If anyone would be sucessful with WVO, I thought it would be you."

My next project is a biodiesel reactor. From now on it is B100 or D2 for me.

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill? "

[asavage]

I'm with you on this one, Al. Take that WVO, SVO and what-have-you and brew it into some ASTM-certified biodiesel and drive with confidence, knowing that you aren't destroying your engine.

"... aren't ..." WHAT?

To be CLEAR in your message, you should mean "are".

No, "aren't" is correct in that sentence: if you turn WVO into BD, you aren't destroying your engine. That's the way I read that.

[redmondjp]

I'm with you on this one, Al. Take that WVO, SVO and what-have-you and brew it into some ASTM-certified biodiesel and drive with confidence, knowing that you aren't destroying your engine.

"... aren't ..." WHAT?

To be CLEAR in your message, you should mean "are".

No, "aren't" is correct in that sentence: if you turn WVO into BD, you aren't destroying your engine. That's the way I read that.

Correct, Al.

Here's another blog featuring the gummy details of WVOSDD (. . . Slow Diesel Death): http://getoffoil.blogspot.com/

It's a shame, it's a PD engine too (meaning high-pressure, cam-operated unit injectors, can you say $$$$).

[TruckA]

Well,

After reading this thread, I guess I'll stick to biodiesel only when I get done with my swap. I wanted to run veggie oil, but I don't like pulling engines out any more than I have to.

David

[philip]

Forget about SVO/WVO/HomeSlime®VO altogether.

Even ASTM Certified "BioDiesel" is like other things in life. A little goes a long way. To me that limits even ASTM to B50. Note what happens to winter when below 40°F.

*VO

[asavage]

I run B99 in my LD28. Runs great. The GP system problem (does not glow long enough when cold, does not glow at all when warm) makes starts harder than with PD, but I am using the Key-to-Start-and-shifter-in-Drive trick to get around that until I fix it for real. The B99 is swelling the fuel cap gasket, and I am certain that the neoprene fuel lines will all need to be replaced, and the IP front seal is probably leaking a bit -- not much, and not getting worse after 11k miles/two years.

The SD may not like B99 as much (in your case, anyway) but the LD seems to like it fine.

I think WVO can be done better and worse. But it requires rigorous procedures and scrupulous maintenance, and that still doesn't address acrolein emission.