Propane injection

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davehoos
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#16

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

D2? It's hard to get winter mix diesel. it is sold around snow fields areas of southern NSW. localy the agent adds a little KEROSENE. i can also buy diesel with ethanol.

I have trouble cold starting my RD28. japanese diesel is different quality.

In 1980's you could buy heavy truck diesel or high speed diesel. this was for japanese 1 tonner like 720 SD23. most stations had a high flow pumps with one type of diesel and normal pump for cars. same fuel is used now.

The tax system is dad gets rebates back for road taxes for fuel used with primary production, this fuel is often a different colour so it can be easily checked. the local agent supplies the same fuel to all customers. a local mine has a "B" double tanker delivering fuel most days with their own fuel. it drops in at the farm to fill an overhead tank when it has extra on.

http://www.ap.urscorp.com/caltex_see_ku ... /Ch_01.pdf
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

davehoos
Posts:525
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Location:Karuah Valley,NSW Australia
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#17

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

http://www.gastek.com.au/

LPG to diesel engines.

local country town-that is into alt fuels-prob high teck gov grants.
you see in the photos the small town look.
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

zen
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Joined:14 years ago
Location:london uk

#18

Post by zen » 13 years ago

well this is what i have done on my sd33t..

lpg (read liquid propane) fitted in boot (truck) filler on side of car below fuel filler..

tank is standard fittment 40l stako with gauge and shut off etc..run lpg line to lpg filter and shut off valve no.2 in engine bay..from there to turbo vaporiser(converts liquid propane to gas, meters flow of gas to engine by "reading" boost pressure and metering valves...) from there to another shut off valve and adjustable (manual) tap to limit max flow of gas..gas flows via small "spud" into pipe just before inlet manifold..

all controlled by switch in car (built in fuel gauge) and micro switch on injection pump (no gas on tick over)..has cut off if oil pressure drops.etc...

almost complete now ,just need to connect vaporiser to shut off valve (pipe too short.dooh!) and from there to inlet manifold..

here are some pics..

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p.s. the relays are home made dpc controller..nothing to do the propane
turbo it

(sd33t home turbo set up if anyone is interested..)

Carimbo
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#19

Post by Carimbo » 13 years ago

Interesting. Curious to see the results. Are those copper tubing coming out of your brake MC?

davehoos
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Location:Karuah Valley,NSW Australia
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#20

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

I havnt seen that type of convertor[turbo vaporiser],if you use a venturi in the intake you use a balance tube theat goes back to the atmosphere breather in the convetor.

another item to fit is a thermostat in the convertor/heater hose.on the return to engine hose[bottom] you fit a thermostat that is normally open then closes when it gets to 50-70C.i havent been able to buy one locally so ive used a heater tap and a 50c temp switch screwed to the convertor.
as the convertor gets hot it leans out.you have to find the temp point you need.this can also help with the heater as you dont need T pieces in the lines-i often use a 4 way vac control heater tapor use the by pass hose.-if the heater has another tap in the line or inside this has to be allowed for.

most of the conversions here have stepmotor controled maximum vapour tap.i havnt got one that works so ive set them up for my self manually.
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

zen
Posts:118
Joined:14 years ago
Location:london uk

#21

Post by zen » 13 years ago

intial report....(very limited testing..ie 10mins..not set up yet..)

way hay!! :) :)

but got to get rid of blow back of gas when one lifts off "gas" when on boost...cos it stinks...any ideas??(wasn't a problem without gas,you just got a whoosh as the pressurised air reversed though the turbo and out the air intake...)

apart from snoorkle??
turbo it

(sd33t home turbo set up if anyone is interested..)

davehoos
Posts:525
Joined:14 years ago
Location:Karuah Valley,NSW Australia
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#22

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

but got to get rid of blow back of gas when one lifts off "gas" when on boost...cos it stinks...any ideas??
from there to turbo vaporiser
ive not aware of this by this name,some companies call there systems turbo if it big enough.to me it look small to suit a 2 liter petrol car-heeps big enough for you system.i was wondering about how it metered fuel,most need a low [venturi] pressure in the supply pipe.you have the gas spud in the pressure pipe.basic gas units arent all that good at blow though system.you need a electronic mixture controled unit.
its an add on thing to what your got.

electronics make life easy but a carby can be made to work.

from what i can see you havnt got a balance tube to the atmosphere/boost air pressure side of the diaphram.there might not be one in the design of the convertor.if you have boost on both sides the convertor it thinks it a non turbo at 1 atmosphere and your using the spud ventri to draw in the gas.
this is how you do blow through carby turbos,but with a blow through you need a fuel pump bigger than max boost.with LPG the cyl in pressurised so most installer dont think about this.

you have a long hose that will be full of gas and give a short smell of rich mixture.

depending on the unit most will operate with the idle circuit disconected.
the idle circuit is often a fixed jet-with a second adjustable idle bypass circuit.when the gas is drawn in too fast for these circuits the main metering opens.you may not need any idle at all.

BUT some of these new system cut all gas when idle solinoid is cut.
so the unit is made up withh no idle circuit.
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

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asavage
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#23

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

Dave asked the same Qs I had:

* Most vaporizer/regulators are set up for negative pressure draw. This unit will "push" gas into a pressurized (above atmospheric) manifold?

* Long hose between regulator and manifold is almost always a problem wtih LPG. IMPCO's installer manual mentions this several times.

davehoos
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#24

Post by davehoos » 13 years ago

fixed venturi type.
most of the mixture control is in the converter.
often called high pressure converter -- the gas drawn in to the engine is a signal vacuum for the flow control diaphragms in the unit.spud work but are not accurate, just cheep.

Impco is a variable venturi mixer.mixture is controlled in the mixer.
half of the system is in the converter [pressure regulator and heat exchange].the hose is large dia and short in length. often called low pressure,ideal for vapour systems[small engines]
like SU carby and the hose is the fuel pipe between the bowl and jet.

i would have got advise on using the air intake of the turbo, if the spud is small it shouldn't have any negative affect on a turbo.
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

zen
Posts:118
Joined:14 years ago
Location:london uk

#25

Post by zen » 13 years ago

vaporiser is a bigas turbo unit..it is connected to manifold for sensing and post turbo for injection..it "pushes the gas in"..as i see it there would be no point in having boost sense if it was a suck in type,as more vac=more boost..

it works quite well..

the idle solinoid does cut the gas off..it is controlled by micro switch on ip..ie on tick over it cuts the gas...

the gas injection is smooth,no "nitros kick"just power improvement across rpm range..i take 3000rpm as red line..i know it will rev higher,but i drive on the torque not the hp..(if i wanted revvy 300hp motor would buy a honda ) and high rpm on old heavy diesels =death to engine..

the idle control on the vaporiser seems(crap instructions in italian) to control amount of gas up to 1500rpm,above that main control comes into play..it "squirts" the gas in relation to boost,not rpm..at present it is set to idle control not far off closed,(open it too much then the rpm increase off tick over is noticable/to fun/to dangerous/to pink pink bang!)main control is open 3/4...

the spud is homemade..3/16 dia..the one supplied was cr*p and there was no way i was using it on my lovely engine..(nut to fix it in place was tiny and INSIDE the intake pipe!!!

there IS room for improvement.(ie..setting it up to give too much gas,but having rpm controlled stepper motor valve reducing gas to correct value depending upon rpm..should be easy to make)...however it definatley works rather well, and at present is set for a "safe" non "pinking" amout of gas..when time allows will play with properly...

but as stated marked improvement in power..mpg ??time will tell.

gas smell was a mistake on my half..it is in fact the burnt gas i am smelling being sucked into leaky old car!!it is an 87 land rover afterall!!so time to reroute exhaust again...(i dont mind wiff,but my mrs will come the summer when windows fully down...)

re the long hose.i didnt want to feed lpg pipes over turbo....so no choice in the matter..seem under my hood???!!
turbo it

(sd33t home turbo set up if anyone is interested..)

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asavage
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#26

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

zen wrote:re the long hose.i didnt want to feed lpg pipes over turbo....so no choice in the matter..seem under my hood???!!
Long hose isn't as much of an issue if the plumbing is pressurised. I was thinking old-school negative pressure draw. I've never heard of the turbo unit setup as you've described. Sounds nice :)
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.

zen
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Location:london uk

#27

Post by zen » 13 years ago

more info...

gonna have to retard ip a tad...turned up the gas..gives loads more power..(well relativly speaking, no rolling road to hand..) but you can hear the engine asking for less advance..(it is well advanced as is)

so gas back down again untill tomorrow (i hope) when will alter timing and re appraise..
turbo it

(sd33t home turbo set up if anyone is interested..)

zen
Posts:118
Joined:14 years ago
Location:london uk

#28

Post by zen » 12 years ago

ok then..

been fiddling and tuning and the like..

re update info on vaporiser...it is not as i stated(info given to me from supplier,so passed on in error..)pushing the gas in...

it in fact relies on a vacum being produced over the spud,however it does apply boost to on side of the vaporiser to ensure gas is above boost pressure..

the gas is now controlled (switched on /off via throttle position switch..ie noneon tick over) by last solinoid in gas supply to engine as close as to inlet as possible..this was to cure surging of gas when coming off tick over..

ip retarded a tiny amount..

no info on improved mpg yet..however performace increase is noticable (espically at low rpm)..it pulls up hills much nicer in 5th gear now..

so far am impressed..(wont be though if i blow it up.. :wink: )

gas useage seems to be minimal..difficult to know how much have used..but gauge indicates 3/5 full, so maybe used 10litres for almost 400 mile, so thats $10 worth of gas(lpg not petrol)

exhaust now smells like camping gas cooker..
turbo it

(sd33t home turbo set up if anyone is interested..)

davehoos
Posts:525
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Location:Karuah Valley,NSW Australia
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#29

Post by davehoos » 12 years ago

it in fact relies on a vacum being produced over the spud
,
venturi/draft tube low pressure.
,however it does apply boost to on side of the vaporiser to ensure gas is above boost pressure..
balance tube should always be used to measure a base pressure just upstream of the venturi.the balance pressure goes on to the air side of the primary mixture control diapram.the venturi drop in pressure signal indicates air speed-more air-more gas,the problem with these is there is no load signal.in therory you could have a fixed mixture ratio curve-in practice if the spud has a low venturi signal you have rich at low RPM and lean at high RPM.due to the idle circuit its can be very rich.for most gasoline engines this is ok.

most owners just put up with extra gas use as the aircleaner blocks up.

my last LPG car flooded as you pulled out of the slipstream of a panteck truck.these are so sencitive.the bance tube was run to the area of the car that the air filter colected air and not near the venturi.

im fitting LPG to my falcon soon,ive fitted the air intake,the venturi OD is [aprox] 50 mm dia THE GAS JET IS 40+MM-it has a steel plate down stream with a 3mm gap and its about 40mm dia.the gas flows out of the gap to mix in the high speed air.

the gap is so small for the air to flow through that it whistles at 3000 and i get oil smoke above that.
WCJR31 Skyline.3.0 manual.wagon
R31 SKYLINE/Passage GT/PINTARA
LPG Ford Falcon 99-06 93 Disco
Local Shire Southern Zone Mechanic.

zen
Posts:118
Joined:14 years ago
Location:london uk

#30

Post by zen » 12 years ago

more mods now...

using 2 stage injection..throttle switch is now used to control 1 solenoid and "power valve"..this 1 is set for high(er) rpm use,and does not open till 1500rpm(adjustable)..the other "power valve" and solenoid is permently on (when propane is switched on) and is set for low rpm use...

this is helping alot..no surging and helps with balancing the gas percentage to diesel with increasing rpm...

however looking into modifiying lamda controlled sytem for use on this turbo diesel unit..maybe replacing lamda probe with map sensor (+some interface unit to give similar voltages etc..)
turbo it

(sd33t home turbo set up if anyone is interested..)

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