WTB: SD22 PMGR Starter

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pbknowles
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Location: Illinois, USA

WTB: SD22 PMGR Starter

#1

Post by pbknowles » 11 years ago

I have two of the big bulky direct drive starters, and below zero F they just turn over too slow. Have checked them over thoroughly and even had one gone over at a rebuilder. I am hoping the PMGR starter would be better if anyone has one.
Thanks.
SD22 powered '85 Chevy S-10

diesel-man
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Location: Elkton, MD

#2

Post by diesel-man » 11 years ago

15w40 is not going to allow the engine to spin over fast. I'm not recommending changing to something else, BTW.
Your choices are:
1) install an engine heater
2) park it inside a building that is at least warmer than outside
3) a little ether
4) new battery and use a charger to give it a boost
5) hair dryer to get a little warm air into the intake
or a combination of the above.
It is no surprise that you are having trouble...it's a diesel (like a reptile). I am assuming you have Winterized fuel in it, and are not just getting around to driving this vehicle with Summer fuel now. If it has 250K or so, maybe the compression is not 100%? (not saying it is worn out)

The problem is that it is over 25 years old and is not going to "light off" like a new Diesel pickup. Grandma is not going to run like when she was sixteen...have a little compassion! If your only vehicle is a diesel (in Illinois) and you absolutely have to be "there", then this is one more bad choice you have made in this time of Global Warming. :o)

Up in Rochester MN they plug in even the gasoline vehicles (to my understanding when talking to people that live there.) I think in the end we can blame the temperature, not the equipment.

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83_maxima
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#3

Post by 83_maxima » 11 years ago

Battery type can also have a severe effect on the speed at which the starter spins.

An incorrect battery will cause the starter to turn slowly. Too slow to start the engine in cold weather.

plenzen
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Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

#4

Post by plenzen » 11 years ago

Block heater is the only answer :) . 20 - 25 minutes is all it takes for mine -17C ( 0 F) :!: ( 40 minutes at -35 C) that, and a full 20 seconds pre heat on the air heater that I believe we both have. I too use 15W40 and it complains but it goes. I don't know that I would use any ether on anything other than an old Detroit/Jimmy or Allis Tractor etc. These pre-cup type engines don't lend themselves too well to that kind of thing. I think that the pistons would fire about 1.5 inches from TDC, lock up, and that would be it for an hour or so till it got rid of the fumes. I also think that the pre cup chamber might be damaged as well so I would definitely use caution with that stuff. Personally, I would not use any kinds of aerosol starting methods at all. They make an oil pan heater that glues to the bottom of the oil pan and will heat the oil to about 150F. Uses about 300W I think. That might be the way to go as well, but the block heater is definitely the best bet. I am sure that those kinds of things are available to you there, but if not let me know via PM and I can get you something from here and ship etc. Can’t buy a car where I am without some means of "Plugging It In". One of the "perks???" of being in the Great White North eh? :wink: There is also a heater that fits in the lower rad hose. You cut out about 2" of hose and this fits in the space with two supplied clamps. Heats the water and as it heats it rises and starts a kind of siphon action happening. I have one of those on my truck as well and have it hooked to an outside air temp sensor so if it gets real cold that one comes on as well. That one installed in about 30 minutes including draining the rad.
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
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pbknowles
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Location: Illinois, USA

#5

Post by pbknowles » 11 years ago

Thanks for all the input...I've got all that stuff covered though, and with a new(ish) 900 cca battery, winter fuel of course, "new" spec compression and the excellent (and built in) intake air heater that plenzen turned me on to it actually does start pretty darn near a modern diesel. And yes, with the block heater it will start regardless of ambient temperature (-26f today, no problem). Starting is not a problem as long as I can spin it fast enough. So my problem is not getting there, it is getting home, since I park in a 10 acre parking lot I can't plug it in there. The PMGR starter used on the later engines should develop more torque than the direct drive, since torque is a function of RPM (HP = t*rpm/5252) and might just give that little extra needed.
SD22 powered '85 Chevy S-10

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83_maxima
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#6

Post by 83_maxima » 11 years ago

plenzen wrote: I have one of those on my truck as well and have it hooked to an outside air temp sensor so if it gets real cold that one comes on as well.
Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I am very curious to know more about this sensor setup. what exactly are you using?

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83_maxima
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#7

Post by 83_maxima » 11 years ago

pbknowles wrote:So my problem is not getting there, it is getting home, since I park in a 10 acre parking lot I can't plug it in there.
I have dealt with the very same issue. Understood.

Sounds like you've got your bases well covered otherwise.

pbknowles
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Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Illinois, USA

#8

Post by pbknowles » 11 years ago

FWIW, I also own a 1986 Ford F350 with a 6.9. My brother in law owns a 1984 F250 with the same. His truck came stock with a direct drive starter, mine with a gear reduction and the difference in cranking speed is startling. I don't think you can even buy a direct drive starter for the 6.9 any more, all the after market ones are gear reduction.
SD22 powered '85 Chevy S-10

plenzen
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Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

#9

Post by plenzen » 11 years ago

This "sensor" is a "Temperature Activated Block Heater Cord" that was made by "Gadget Manufacturing" and called a "Block - Elec ". The website listed was at http://www.blockelec.com. I say “was” because it no longer seems to be activated so :?: :?: Simply stated it is a small box approx. half the width of a computer mouse and a little thicker, with a short cord ( approx 8") with plug and LED inside to see if there is power. On the other end of the mouse like device is a 110V female plug. Inside that device is a temperature sensitive disc and it closes to complete a circuit when the ambient temp reaches -12C. I have this device mounted under the hood of my diesel and the extra "rad hose" heater plugged into it. The regular block heater simply gets 110V all the time. The truck is parked in a garage (un heated detached). I have a timer that turns the power on to a block heater cord. ( You can plug 3 items into this cord). After a really cold night both heaters will come on, but once the under hood temp reaches -12C the hose heater will shut off and only the block heater will remain on. It does not take very long for the under hood temp to rise. I have the "mouse like device" mounted in front of the drivers side battery, between the grille and the rad support. This device is reccomended for "Gasoline" engines as diesels don’t like even -12 C but to activate an additional heater it works great. I have one of them installed on my daughters Saturn as she has to park behind her appt. building outside and a timer would only get stolen. This allows her to plug in her car every night during the winter and will only turn on the block heater when it gets cold enough thus not costing her any money until that happens. Hope I explained this right and it makes sense. Might need to be put on a different post as we kind of got sidelined here.
Last edited by plenzen 11 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
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plenzen
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#10

Post by plenzen » 11 years ago

Back to the starter. I wonder if the starter from the SD 25 will work in your application. There seem to be a number of options with NAPA as listed for the 86 720 with the SD25. I don't know if it is slanted the same or if the bolt pattern is the same or not. It might interfere with the exhaust manifold on the SD22, and I think you have the road draft tube to deal with as well. I had my GR stater rebuilt a year ago and there was some issues with it when I got it back. I tried to fit a DD starter into my truck and it would not go between the motor mount and the block as it is about one half inch longer than the GR type. I finally sorted out the issues with the GR starter. I checked the NAPA prices and they do not seem all that bad considering. :? If they have one might be your best bet. This is a picture of the SD25 starter that I have in my truck. Don't know if you see any potential fit problems from that or not. HTH http://nissandiesel.dyndns.org/viewtopi ... 0996#10996
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN

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asavage
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#11

Post by asavage » 11 years ago

As stated by others, a good battery makes a substantial difference. Toyota trucks of the same vintage gang two batteries in parallel to fire off their little 2.4l Four, so twin batteries aren't only for the big boys.

I have to put one of those small square space heaters under my worn-out Sentra CD17, 45 mins. before I leave for work, or it won't start unless I roll-start it (I live at the top of a small, steep hill).

On the Ford/IH 6.9l: the DD Delco is still available for them, yes, but it's generally agreed that the GR starters (there are two different ones?) work better overall. On the '84 F250 diesel truck I sold to Mark Hartz a couple of years ago, I repaired the Delco once myself (melted down the plastic brush holders), he swapped it out once for a DD rebuilt, and it died again two weeks ago (bad rebuild, my opinion). He put a GR in this time, plus $240 of Interstate Mega-Tron Plus batteries, and it can almost start without GPs now, the speed difference is acute.

You might swap to a Winter grade of lube oil. 10W30 synthetic would be a start.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.

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ecomike
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#12

Post by ecomike » 11 years ago

The battery to starter cable(s) (+ and ground) size could be an issue too!

I am in the market for a spare SD22 direct drive starter.
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.

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