Noisy combustion (popping, cackle) during warm-up

SD diesels were widely available in the US in the 1981-86 Datsun/Nissan 720 pickups, and in Canada through '87 in the D21 pickup.

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philip
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Noisy combustion (popping, cackle) during warm-up

#1

Post by philip »

After rebuilding the injectors and resetting Injection Pump (IP) delivery, I decided to mix in a fuel lubricity improver as a regular practice. This additive also claims to increase diesel fuel's cetane number. The short explanation is; the higher the cetane number, the easier it becomes to ignite the fuel. This is a good thing in most cases (within limits) facilitating quicker cold weather start ups.

But the SD like nearly all other InDirect Injection (IDI) engines already has 22:1 compression AND in the SD's case a high amount of base timing (20 degrees BTDC).

The "problem" I have is there is now a lot of transient, loud, sharp cackle/combustion knock at idle and at lower engine speeds UNTIL ... the engine coolant temperature gets up above approx 140 degrees F.

Researching the matter came up with a phenomenon called "Ignition Lag." This is a phenomenon where the amount of time from the moment fuel begins to be injected until it ignites occurs closer to TDC than intended.

It seems that a cold prechamber, cylinder head, and piston contribute greatly to this "ignition lag". So under this condition, when the mixture does ignite, the piston is closer to TDC (making the cylinder pressure higher when ignition finally does occur) and there is more fuel present which promotes a violent flame propagation.

As the engine coolant temperature rises, ignition lag is reduced which in turn slows the rapid pressure rise when combustion begins because the piston is further from TDC (lower cylinder pressure at the moment of ignition) and there is less fuel in the cylinder at the moment ignition begins. For lack of better terminology, combustion goes from being a violent pop to a predictable and slower burn.

Here's a graph with an explanation. (It's all on the Internet, right?)

Image

Ignition Delay

The time between the start of injection and the start of combustion is referred to as the ignition delay. The delay is primarily a function of the parameters that affect the chemical reaction rate of the fuel-vapor mixtures. The parameters that most affect ignition delay in open-chamber engines are temperature and pressure of the air during the delay period and the chemistry of the fuel.

The major reason that long ignition delays occur in a cold combustion chamber is that a large amount of fuel vaporizes and mixes with air before ignition takes place. When ignition begins, the vaporized fuel and air mixture burns rapidly, producing a large pressure rise, a high peak pressure, and a particular sharp knocking sound. Ignition delay can lead to mechanical failure and/or failure to meet noise control standards.

Ignition delay can be reduced by retarding injection timing, applying exhaust recirculation systems, or by heating the inlet air. These solutions can also lead to reduction in performance and/or an increase in unwanted emissions.

Formulas to predict ignition delay have been obtained from engine and bomb tests, however the inexact nature of determining the start of injection, start of ignition and the temperature of the region of ignition produce uncertainties and lack of agreement when applied from engine to engine. Given these uncertainties, the ignition delay formulas are mainly used to predict trends unless specific correlation data for an engine and fuel have been obtained.


From this explanation, I gather that in examples where the base timing setting is overly retarded for a normal temperature engine (lower NOx), then -advancing- the base timing when the engine is cold should improve driveability but ... must be backed down as the engine warms.

In the SD's case, the base timing is set at maximum tolerable advance for a normalized engine temperature. This makes for high NOx emissions but is offset to some degree by throttling the air supply thereby reducing compression and NOx. As such, the high amount of base timing easily tolerated by normalized engine temperature now contributes to "cackle / knock" when cold combustion chamber surfaces extend the "ignition delay" phenomenon. I've also discovered cetane improver fuel additives worsen cold engine combustion cackle / knock depending how how much you add to the fuel. Adding ASTM biodiesel has a very similar effect.
Last edited by philip 19 years ago, edited 8 times in total.
-Philip
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1982 Datsun 720KC SD-22

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#2

Post by glenlloyd »

I have this problem with my VW Golf D 1.6. It pops when it's cold but goes away when it starts to warm up. I had the injectors overhauled thinking this might resolve the problem, but it did not.

So is there a fix for this situation? This is the only 1.6 I've had this problem with.

thanks
steve a
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05 E320 CDI, 92 300SD

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#3

Post by asavage »

The thing that irks me about this explanation is that every diesel I know about that has cold timing compensation (Ford 6.9l, GM 5.7l, GM 6.2l, VW 1.5l/1.6l, and the LD28) all advance the injection timing when cold (the VW is manual advance until '85; the remainder all auto-advance until some temperature is achieved). There must be some reason why this is done. Is it emissions? None of the FSM explanations I've read for all these engines mentions emissions as the reason for advancing the cold timing; all (that I recall) mention cold driveability.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.
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#4

Post by philip »

asavage wrote:The thing that irks me about this explanation is that every diesel I know about that has cold timing compensation (Ford 6.9l, GM 5.7l, GM 6.2l, VW 1.5l/1.6l, and the LD28) all advance the injection timing when cold (the VW is manual advance until '85; the remainder all auto-advance until some temperature is achieved). There must be some reason why this is done. Is it emissions? None of the FSM explanations I've read for all these engines mentions emissions as the reason for advancing the cold timing; all (that I recall) mention cold driveability.
Where the base timing setting is overly retarded at normal temperature engine to achieve lower NOx, then there is room for -advancing- the base timing when the engine is cold for improved driveability but ... must be backed down at some trip point or gradually as the engine warms to stay within NOx limitations.

My thought process is the SD22 starts off with a fairly high base timing of 20 degrees (18 in some cases) and has no cold timing retard provision to reduce/prevent cold combustion knocking. The reduction in cold knock is dependent on rising engine temperature reducing ignition lag.

Do the engines you mentioned run considerably less than 18-20 degrees except for cold starts and during warm-up?
Last edited by philip 18 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
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#5

Post by asavage »

Yeah, I'm sure that they all do. 18° BTDC is a lot of initial advance.

The idle advance for the LD28 is somewhere around 8° -- can't really quantify closer than that, as the spec isn't published, that's just the most common number I've seen using my clamp-on pickup.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.
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#6

Post by philip »

asavage wrote:Yeah, I'm sure that they all do. 18° BTDC is a lot of initial advance.

The idle advance for the LD28 is somewhere around 8° -- can't really quantify closer than that, as the spec isn't published, that's just the most common number I've seen using my clamp-on pickup.
I am unclear what you mean.

Is the 8 degrees you refer to the base timing or is this 8 degrees the amount of additional advance supplied when the engine is cold?

When you set the IP base timing using the FSM static procedure, how similar is a scroboscopic reading? My thinking is Nissan may have made an allowance for their static method.

If I reset the SD's timing that far back from spec, it would NOT have cold combustion knock. Just moving it back to 14 degrees made a considerable difference. But there was a power loss.
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#7

Post by asavage »

8° seems to be the idle timing (as opposed to base, because base is set at zero RPM on the LD28).

I don't know how much the LD28's VE advances the timing via the Cold Start Device, but the VE book shows it could be as much as 2.5° (camshaft; 5° at the crank). ISTR that the cold advance on the Ford 6.9l is only 2° (cannot recall at which shaft, but seem to think it was at the crank). My foggy recollection of the manual VW diesel advance is that it is 5° crank (which corresponds neatly with the VE book). The number I vaguely recall for the GM 6.2l is 10° -- I did own the FSM but never really needed to know much in it, the engine rarely gave me trouble in the 80k miles I drove it. I'm probably misremembering that one. It sure got real quiet when the 130° snap switch opened up though!
When you set the IP base timing using the FSM static procedure, how similar is a scroboscopic reading? My thinking is Nissan may have made an allowance for their static method.
I've never set the timing via any method on the LD28. It's hard, and I'm lazy. Joe (Dr. Jones) has set his via the OEM method and was going to thereafter shoot it using my equipment, to establish a correlation, but time has not been found for the latter.

The FSM method for the LD28 has you completely disconnect the CSD prior to setting the timing, so it's definitely set in "warm mode".

Diesels are a lot more sensitive to one or two degrees timing change than a a gasser, I've found.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.
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philip
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#8

Post by philip »

glenlloyd wrote:I have this problem with my VW Golf D 1.6. It pops when it's cold but goes away when it starts to warm up. I had the injectors overhauled thinking this might resolve the problem, but it did not.

So is there a fix for this situation? This is the only 1.6 I've had this problem with.

thanks
steve a
The SD engine has no temperature sensitive injection pump timing device.

In fact cold combustion chamber surfaces prolong "ignition lag" by absorbing heat from the rapidly compressed air. One has to accept the phenomenon or make compromises.

Retarding the injection pump base timing will not minimize "ignition lag" but will lessen the amount of fuel present when ignition does occur,thereby reducing knock severity. But retarded timing is also associated with power loss.

The tradional way of shortening ignition lag is to use a fuel that ignites more easily (higher cetane). This way, there is less fuel present at the ignition moment so the audible knock is reduced. But there are trade-offs as the engine warms if the timing is left alone.

Another consideration would be to "re-curve" the injection pump centrifugal timing device and modify (extend) the amount of timing advance range, which one could then start off with less base timing but still have the same maximum.

At the present, I have the injection pump timing at spec (18 degrees). I just drive away sedately until the cold engine combustion knocking ceases ... which means when the temperature meter reaches the bottom end of the operating range.
Last edited by philip 18 years ago, edited 6 times in total.
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#9

Post by glenlloyd »

Although my Golf is a 1986, the engine is from a 1982 Audi. Both of these vehicles have a cold start assist that you activate by pulling a small handle on the dash. I used mine once and it didn't make any difference so I never used it again. I don't recall how cold it was at the time. The engine didn't struggle to run so I just didn't bother with the cold start advance again.

Whether this starting assist is in addition to what the pump might do automatically (post 1985?) I don't know, but I do know that the dash mounted assist pull can be found on 1987 US Jetta D & TD as well as 1988 Canadian TD Jettas.

I'll have to see if the cable for this is connected properly, but I think it is.

My concern is that this will damage the pistons in some way, but from what I gather of the above it shouldn't?

thanks
steve a
97 Jetta TDI, 90 Passat wagon TDI
05 E320 CDI, 92 300SD

gir - won't the sploding hurt?
zim - silence!
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#10

Post by fud2468 »

I have a Popular Mechanics Imported Car Repair manual 1975-83 that says 20 degrees BTDC for the SD-22. It gives no information for the LD-28 or other import diesels.
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#11

Post by philip »

glenlloyd wrote:Although my Golf is a 1986, the engine is from a 1982 Audi. Both of these vehicles have a cold start assist that you activate by pulling a small handle on the dash. I used mine once and it didn't make any difference so I never used it again. I don't recall how cold it was at the time. The engine didn't struggle to run so I just didn't bother with the cold start advance again.

Whether this starting assist is in addition to what the pump might do automatically (post 1985?) I don't know, but I do know that the dash mounted assist pull can be found on 1987 US Jetta D & TD as well as 1988 Canadian TD Jettas.

I'll have to see if the cable for this is connected properly, but I think it is.

My concern is that this will damage the pistons in some way, but from what I gather of the above it shouldn't?

thanks
steve a
1) What does this "cold start assist" knob acutally do? Does it advance the base timing a few degrees? Or does it affect fuel delivery for cold starting? Both? In the SD's case, the fuel control lever on the injection pump has three positions ... OFF/START/RUN. The fuel control lever in START position simply increases fuel delivery while the engine is cranked and for about 3-5 seconds after the engine fires off. No effect on injection timing.

2) Any particularly audible combustion knock imparts additional mechanical stress, particularly when the knocks are at the intensity of a 20oz ball peen hammer hitting the engine block with authority. The additional mechanical stress imparted by these sonic and thermal shocks have punctured piston crowns ... cracked pistons ... broken compression rings ... and damaged rod bearings. And not that anyone here cares but ... NOx zooms through the roof during these transient pops.

My subjective opinion is any diesel engine needs to be driven gingerly until there is sufficient coolant temperature established to stop the popping/knocking/cackle. A slow drive away is not a big inconvenience for me.

As for the fuel formulation here in emissions sensitive southern California, I might start looking for a cetane lowering agent. Ideas?
Last edited by philip 19 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
-Philip
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My friend, you are missed . . .

1982 Datsun 720KC SD-22

"Im slow and I'm ahead of you"
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#12

Post by TheDieseliminator »

The LD28 has an exact initial injection timing of 7° and is far different in the case of an SD22 (since its injection timing is 20° and 18° for California models). I found the above specification right on the back cover of my 81 diesel FSM.
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#13

Post by asavage »

TheDieseliminator wrote: I found the above specification right on the back cover of my 81 diesel FSM.
That information is removed from the later manuals, and is pretty misleading, since there are not reference marks to use a 7° BTDC number: what would you do with it?
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.
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#14

Post by asavage »

philip wrote:1) What does this "cold start assist" knob acutally do? Does it advance the base timing a few degrees? Or does it affect fuel delivery for cold starting? Both?
It advances the timing up to a certain RPM, above which it has no effect. It does not change the fuel delivery quantity.

The Bosch "Yellow Book" on distributor-type IPs (pg 56, Fig 14) shows that the advance is up to 5° crank, but the graph has no X-axis scale so there's no hint of the RPM above which the advance is active. Bosch's graph looks pretty much the same as the graph at the lower end of this page:

Image
In the SD's case, the fuel control lever on the injection pump has three positions ... OFF/START/RUN. The fuel control lever in START position simply increases fuel delivery while the engine is cranked and for about 3-5 seconds after the engine fires off. No effect on injection timing.
The Bosch VE IP's Cold Start lever (controlled thermostatically on the LD28, manually on old VWs) does the opposite: it advances the low-RPM timing while leaving the fuel delivery quantity unaffected.
Last edited by asavage 16 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.
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#15

Post by Zoltan »

I don't know if all fuel conditioners increase cetane number, but I've been using the NAPA brand (#9600) "Diesel Fuel Anit-Gel & Conditioner, Designed for use in Low Suphur Diesel". It doesn't claim to increase cetane number although it says it increases power.
Image
Image
in a cold combustion chamber is that a large amount of fuel vaporizes and mixes with air before ignition takes place. When ignition begins, the vaporized fuel and air mixture burns rapidly, producing a large pressure rise, a high peak pressure
It's curious why you started getting poppings and knocking after installing rebuilt injectors. One obvious assumption would be that the new injectors deliver more fuel, or atomize fuel MUCH BETTER than the factory one? Wouldn't a more perfect vaporized fuel and air mix ignite a little bit earlier than not so well vaporized? I am just thinking deductively here.

IMO, I'd rather have a little bit of smoke coming from the tail pipe than knocking at lower temperature and I'd look for used injectors after you exhausted all other possibilites and still having this problem.
- Zoltan -
________________________________
'82 Datsun 720 SD22 California model
'86 Ford Escort 2.0L Diesel
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