Starter Motor

[SoCalanz]

The electrical shop guy stated something I think Al did also. He said it is possible the starter works fine on the bench but the there may be a problem in the starter which does not allow the gear which engages the flywheel to have enough power to actually turn it. I said, what if that is not the problem and I pay you to rebuild it. He said, well that would mean your problem is elsewhere but at least you know your starter is perfect! I looked at the flywheel, checked it to see if it was loose, which it is not. I also carefully moved it with a screwdriver so I know the engine is not frozen. Also, the electrical guy said because the starter was making a "clack, clack" noise he could tell there was something wrong. I did notice what looked like some slight marring on the front edges of the teath of the flywheel. Maybe they are supposed to be like that and not a 90 degree angle? If I do need a new flywheel, is the diesel and gas maxima the same?

I took a phot of the flywheel and what I think is the marring but I'm not sure I know how to post the picture here.

[rlaggren]

I've seen a couple of flywheels. I suspect your's is probably fine. There is some wear every time the starter engages and it does leave a mark. Also, the teeth may be slightly chamfered to ease the initial engagement.

Cars run 12volts which is a low voltage system and every perfect connection reduces the voltage at least 1/10 volt (for current draws less than 1 amp); the higher the current draw, the more voltage is lost to each slight imperfection in the wire and connections. Your starter probably draws over 100 amps so and if a wire or connection is bad the voltage could drop to the point the starter wouldn't function right.

I'm not saying don't fix the starter. Just that from my own experience I know it's easy to strangle a starter electrically so it won't work even if it's in perfect shape. It's a good idea to look with real suspicion at all the wiring in that circuit. Including the solenoid wiring - it needs to draw a moderate amount of current on its own when it engages the starter.

The absolute most likely wiring problem is also the easiest to fix - the connections at the battery. It might be worth you trouble to replace the existing battery ground and hot wire to the starter and see if there is any difference in its behavior. When doing this, take the time to make the connections as perfect as you can; the ones that usually are bad are the connections at the battery itself.

Best luck. Rufus

[asavage]

The electrical guy said because the starter was making a "clack, clack" noise he could tell there was something wrong.

Based on my recent experience, the Hitachi solenoids have a limited life. See my link above to the Hitachi solenoids thread.

I did notice what looked like some slight marring on the front edges of the teath of the flywheel. Maybe they are supposed to be like that and not a 90 degree angle?

As Rufus noted, the engage side of the teeth is chamfered to aid in engagement.

If I do need a new flywheel, is the diesel and gas maxima the same?

No!

I took a phot of the flywheel and what I think is the marring but I'm not sure I know how to post the picture here.

See this thread.

[SoCalanz]

I failed to state I was bypassing the ignition when attempting to start the car. However, I did notice the guy I bought the car from has some hokey connection for the positive to the battery. I am actually going to look at it now as it is wrapped with silver tape. Maybe this has something to do with it.

[Carimbo]

has some hokey connection for the positive to the battery. I am actually going to look at it now as it is wrapped with silver tape. Maybe this has something to do with it.

Yes now you are on a good path, starting to pay attention to what rlaggren has been telling you. Those heavy pos and neg battery cables are sized that way for a reason. They need to be in good condition as well. No corrosion end to end, even in the middle where it is hard to detect (sometimes perceived by a slight bulge under the insulation), and the contacts need to be clean and tight. What size/rating/condition is the battery?

[asavage]

The 5/16" (8mm) spade connections on the two fusible links that come off the positive battery cable give no end of trouble until you replace them.

[SoCalanz]

850 CCA/1000 CA, 420 load test amps. AC Delco. The auto store told me I could get away with 700 cca but I insisted on more than that. It was only about $30 or $40 more, anyway.

[SoCalanz]

I just checked the positive to starter wire (very large wire) and found the "hokey" connection is a battery terminal that is screwed into the bottow of large metal thing at the end of the positive cable, right where it would meet the battery. It looks hokey to me but maybe this is the proper link from the factory Al was talking about. It was loose, meaning the terminal was still screwed in but not tight as I could move it back and forth. I would take a photo but my battery just died and I still cannot figure out how to upload a photo. Can someone tell me where the "any key" is.

[asavage]

I still cannot figure out how to upload a photo.

Again, see this thread.

[SoCalanz]

Thanks Al. I was actually doing this right but I saw letters rather than a picture so I thought I was doing it wrong. Anyway, this is the connection from the positive cable to the battery terminal. I have uncrewed the terminal to give an idea of what it is. It was actually tighter than this but I could still move it back & forth. Is this a stock set-up or has somebody rigged this to avoid having to buy a new cable?

[SoCalanz]

Here is the flywheel photo I mentioned. I appears to have some marring but maybe that is normal wear and tear

[goglio704]

Hard to make out from the pic, but whatever you have there is not stock. The part on the right is a top post to stud adapter. The part on the left looks like it could be the remains of the factory terminal without the portion that actually wraps around the post. That is a really poor setup. Almost anything you could do would be an improvement.

[asavage]

You don't have to link to Imageshack, you can refer to them directly:

Code: Select all

[img]http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5954/maximadieselbattconn1lv7.jpg[/img]

According to the EXIF camera info, your Gateway digital camera should be capable of much higher resolution than 320 pixels wide. And you should be using Macro mode for these close shots.

The battery terminal pic almost looks like a camera phone, it's so fuzzy, but Matt's right: that's not an OEM setup. The OEM cables are about 00 gauge (quite thick) and have relatively massive terminal ends. If the cable's been chopped, having a new terminal swedged on your cable can run $20-30, and a whole new cable upwards of $80-100. Most people buy one of those "temporary repair" terminal things that never last more than a year or two, but they are $2 and can get you by. It looks like someone used at least a Deep Cycle top post-to-5/16"-stud adapter; how the cable connects to the adapter I can't see, but the way you have them oriented looks like they may have drilled & tapped the remains of the OEM terminal and screwed the 5/16" stud on the Deep Cycle adapter into the OEM terminal? Which absolutely will not work, because you cannot thread into lead and have any real clamping force.

That Deep Cycle adapter is toast, too. They are cheap to buy, but I don't see how to make one work for you.

Whatever that picture is of, it needs to be rid of corrosion, it's not nice & shiny.

Since it's stopped raining so hard, I'll go shoot some pics of my OEM cables in the '82 Wagon . . .

(click on any image for larger)


Notice the shot with the quarter in it? That's the swedged end of the 00 positive cable. You are not going to find that at your FLAPS. And it really is necessary.

The last shot shows a fusible link and connector bypass (black wire from battery terminal to red wire, both 10ga, with white electrical tape) for the GP relay, a (soldered) temporary fix I did for the third owner eight years ago. Next to it is one of the troublesome 5/16" spade connector terminals that go bad.

Note that my terminals are in worn condition (lots of jump starts), but are installed correctly, in that the terminals are below flush with the tops of the battery posts. To do that requires spreading the terminals, best done with a battery terminal spreader (see this post for a picture and links). Never use a hammer or hammer-substitute on a battery terminal or post, the battery separator material breaks, the cell tie straps break, it ruins the battery.

Old Volvos have bronze terminals, just lovely stuff.



Again, it's hard to see well, but what I see looks normal. Play with your camera a bit and see if you can get clearer shots, and we can give better advice.

[SoCalanz]

You are not going to find that at your FLAPS. And it really is necessary.

If you cannot find it there, where can you find it? I have been out playing with this car and the starter all day to no avail. The only conclusion I can come up with is there is some defect in the starter which does not give it enough power to turn the flywheel (One of my friends called it a ring gear, the other a flywheel).

[asavage]

(heavy gauge battery cables)

If you cannot find it there, where can you find it?

I think that you will have to have it fabricated. Parts stores do not have battery cables that are 00 gauge -- well, not around here, anyway. The last two I've needed I've had fabricated by my local auto electric guy. He does great work -- and he's not cheap.

=====================================================

Upthread, you said, "My wagon is a 1983 and the starter cranks but does not seem to engage the flywheel."

But just now you said, "The only conclusion I can come up with is there is some defect in the starter which does not give it enough power to turn the flywheel".

This is a different symptom.

"Not engaging the flywheel" means the starter motor is running. Is the starter motor running ("whirrrrrr" or "wheeeee") but not turning the engine? Or is there a "clunk" and then silence?

Which symptom?

If you get the clunk and silence, chances are the solenoid's contacts are bad (very common) or the starter motor (the motor part) is bad in such a way that it only dies when you bolt it to the bellhousing, which is unlikely. I've had one starter with a dead motor, and four starters with working motors but bad solenoids.

A failing solenoid may pass enough current to spin the motor with no load on it, but not enough to spin the engine.

==============================================

If you have a voltmeter and a friend, you can determine if the cable is the problem by measuring the voltage drop of the cable & connectors -- measuring the resistance of them indirectly by using a voltmeter.

Assuming a more-or-less charged battery . . .

Hold the pointy end of the positive lead of the VM on the post (not the terminal, but the post) of the positive battery post. Hold the VM's negative lead on the post on the starter where the big cable from the battery connects. That's pretty hard to do: hold both those pointy ends on the two test places. I use a clip lead (wire with alligator clips on both ends) for the starter ends, and carefully clip on to the threaded stud protruding beyond the nut, and connect the VM's negative lead to the other end of the clip lead.

Connected this way, the VM will read zero. Until your friend turns the Ign. to START. AT this point, the VM will read something. In an ideal world, it would read zero still. Acceptable is anything up to about a half volt while cranking (and that's on the high side!). If you see multiple volts reading, the cable or a connection on the cable is bad.

==============================================
If the cable voltage drop was acceptable in the previous test, move the VM's negative lead to the other stud on the starter's solenoid -- the stud whose wire goes from the solenoid on into the starter motor. Repeat the test: have your friend put the Ign. into START again. If this time you get lots and lots of volts, the solenoid is bad. Even though it "clunks" and is moving the starter drive into the flywheel, the portion of the solenoid that is supposed to direct current to the starter motor to get it spinning after the gear is engaged to the ring gear, is bad. This is a very common problem with the Hitachi starters.

If the voltage in that test reads near zero, the starter motor is bad internally.

(One of my friends called it a ring gear, the other a flywheel).

A flywheel (all manual trans vehicles and some AT vehicles, such as our LD28 and Ford/IH 6.9/7.3l IDI engines) or flex plate (almost all AT vehicles) have a ring gear that the starter engages. Offhand, I can't think of an exception. Whether one states that a starter engages the ring gear or the flywheel is a matter of semantics: the same event is occurring.