** ASTM BIODIESEL vs. Raw VEGGIE OILS **

[philip]

I'm addressing this thread to those curious about running ASTM certified BioDiesel ... which I mean to differentiate from "homebrewed biodiesel" and "Waste Vegetable Oil" (WVO). But I will gleefully entertain other points of view here.

Indulge me for a moment to share my experience with (commercially sold) ASTM B20 and B100 (from soy) in my '82 SD22.

Back in late 2004, I ran several tanks of B20 with no alterations to injection timing or fuel hoses. There was a slight increase in cold engine diesel cackle. Fuel mileage dropped a little in town. The traditional diesel exhaust smell was lessened considerably. At the time, B20 was selling for $2.55 while #2 diesel sold for $2.29.

Then I ran a tank of B100 (soy), purchased from the same fuel retailer. The following morning there was more diesel "cackle" evident while the engine was warming up. It is known that a few degrees injection timing retard is often required when burning B100. In retrospect with the SD, I'd say at least 5 degrees. Fuel mileage was down again. Where #2 would return 35 mpg, B100 would return 31 mpg. At the time, B100 was selling for $3.70 while #2 was selling for $2.46. No smell from exhaust. Shortly after running out this pricey tank of fuel, I noted fuel sweating from the pressurized rubber fuel lines under the hood. This was expected on these old fuel lines by now so I replaced the old lines. B100 does a number on old rubber pretty quickly so you need Teflon lined fuel hose. Also, the little paper "pre-filter" element turned black. I replaced it and the secondary filter. Engine power dropped a little on B100 but this is subjective.

I'm not sold on B99 as a replacement fuel. But there is ample evidence that small percentages mixed with #2 diesel fuel will restore lubricity lost to new low sulphur petro diesel fuel formulations. And of course, there is the highly detergent nature of biodiesel be it ASTM or "homebrewed."

"Homebrewed biodiesel" is another kettle of fish. After attending a daylong seminar in Pasadena on homebrewing and hearing questions from homebrew practitioners, I did not find it cost effective to home brew a "biodiesel". My time has value and it takes time to collect used cooking oil from Chinese restaurants, process your collected oils, let alone what to do with all the waste glycerin and other waste products. Then there is the inevitable mess from spilled product. Most importantly, "homebrew" purity and neutrality varies widely with each batch run. I heard this from the most experienced brewers in the group.

Finally we come to Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO). I have yet to see a professional cost/benefit analysis that includes conversion costs, expected break-even mileage for the investment, personal time spent, and compromised component life costs. NASTY things (like engine damage due to oil dilution, injection pump damage, injector damage, increasesd emissions) DO happen to the fuel systems running WVO and to the engines run on WVO due to inpurities, acids, and byproducts so often found in WVO.

So I relegate WVO to a labor of love and a crusade against the Establishment.

[philip]

Over on MSN and here on NissanDiesel Forum, our fearless leader Al Savage had this to say about WVO.

1) Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:00 am Post subject:

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I thought I could be saving the environment and my money by doing this but it seems otherwise.

Money? In the short term, yes. If you are very, very careful, you can spend less cash on fuel. However, what's your time worth? For most people I know, you could mow an extra lawn once per month and earn enough dough to pay for the difference -- and you wouldn't have to collect "free" fryer oil, nor filter it, nor wonder what other stuff is in it.

Making biodiesel from fryer oil -- with testing of every batch -- converts the unknown to the better known, but then you have to work with methanol and lye, and you have to dispose of the glycerin.

If you have to buy one injection pump rebuild, or one extra set of injectors, or you cut the usable life of your diesel engine by 40k miles, then how much money have you "saved"?

Then there's the tailpipe emissions. Google Acrolien, it's not pretty. Can you spell "mutagenic"?

I'd like to run biodiesel straight but I don't have that kind of money. How much does it cost right now?

Biodiesel is not a money-saving proposition right now. People don't buy BD to save money, they buy it for other reasons. It's better for your engine, your environment, your world, your politics. It's not cheaper than heavily subsidized petrodiesel. I get better mileage with my diesels than my gasser, so I am not paying "more" by running BD over gasoline, only in comparison with petrodiesel am I spending"more". I don't care -- my fuel budget is not that sensitive.

If I were to run strictly Filtered and boiled preheated veggie oil would it be completely stupid? am I wasting my time?

I don't know what boiling fryer oil will do -- remove the water? You'll spend a lot of electricity getting each gallon of oil up to water's boiling point, and a lot more to get to the boiling point of fryer oil. Up here in the PNW, that's trading the killing of wild fish runs for fuel processing -- our power is predominantly hydroelectric, and the more water we use to make electricity, the less we can afford to spill over the spillways to allow fish to migrate around the dams we've put on all major rivers up here.

Filtering. Filter bags are pretty cheap individually, but 5 micron and 1 micron bags take a long time to gravity process WVO -- at least at reasonable temperatures. And then you throw them away -- landfill. Do not dream that you can get away with filtering coarser than 5 micron, the IP will not last.

You have to start up and shut down on either petrodiesel or BD, every time. Can you do that? Without fail? Does anyone else use your vehicle? Can they be trained? The first time you don't follow the steps is the last time you'll be able to start the engine without the hassle of a lot of congealed WVO all over the place. You'll have to purge the WVO out of the injection system, and it won't want to pump so you'll be pulling lines off and blowing them down, spewing smelly fryer oil all over, which is ever worse to deal with than PD -- at least the PD does eventually evaporate (the fryer oil won't), and the WVO will grow crap wherever it lands if you don't wash it off with soap.

There are a lot of downsides to burning untransesterified fryer oil in a diesel engine.

_________________
Regards,
Al S.

+++++++++++++++++

2) Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:02 pm

Author: Al Savage

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So much has been written and said about "biodiesel" . . . and so much of it is bullshit !

I'll try to keep this short, but I encourage you to try to find two hours and do your own research (I can recommend biodieselnow.com). I am not quite an expert, but I am damned close at this point, having been in the game for about 2.5 years.

"Biodiesel" has a specific definition: it's transesterified oil. The oil (feedstock) can be new or used, and vegetable or animal sourced.

What "biodiesel" (BD) is NOT (not!) is just oil, or oil mixed with kerosene, or oil mixed with Sta-bil, or oil mixed with . . . you get the idea. BD is not oil mixed with anything. If the feedstock hasn't been transesterified, it's not BD, period. If you don't believe me, you can argue with the National Biodiesel Board and the Feds, who made the definition.

In order to be sold as a fuel or as an additive, legally it should have to pass the BD ASTM specification D-6751. That's right, there's a series of defined tests (just as there are for petrodiesel (PD)), and if a test batch of BD won't pass the tests, it's not BD, it's homebrew or worse.

People are putting all kinds of crap into diesel engines these days, many of whom are doing it because they heard some things about "biodiesel" and thought they could save a buck, or save the whales, or boost local economy, or just hang out with other folks of like mind . . . and a whole lot of otherwise useful diesel engines are being scrapped as a consequence. That's my opinion, and I've seen enough of this to be convinced.

[ . . . pause to calm down . . . ]

Alternative diesel fuels these days fall broadly into three categories: BD (that which passes ASTM D-6751, and BD that doesn't quite); Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) and Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO, which strangely enough includes non-vegetable oils, go figure) that are filtered somewhat; and gawd-awful SVO/WVO/bathtub-homebrew mixtures.

Each category has it proponents, advantages, and drawbacks. It's beyond the scope of one post by myself to do a decent job of even outlining all of those. Suffice to say that I am a very big booster of BD. BD (which is NOT VO/WVO) is a fuel which burns cleaner than PD (much lower HC, CO, particulate emissions (PM), and sometimes -- but not always -- slightly higher NOx in engines that have not had their IP timing backed off 1-2°). BD contains no sulphur, so no acid rain. BD has hugely enhanced lubricity over PD. BD smells a lot better (when burned) than PD -- as Philip says, it smells a lot like house paint in unburned state: linseed oil-like. BD is non-toxic and is not classified as a hazardous material (though the chemicals used in its productions definitely ARE) and you can just put a bunch on the ground and it won't do a thing. It degrades relatively quickly when exposed to air & sunshine (compared to PD). BD has a much higher flash point than PD, so it's less of a hazard to handle & transport.

BD can be produced, in quantity, domestically. If you research much, you'll find people who say it can't put a dent in domestic PD requirements, but they're ignoring algae (yes, algae) and Thermal Depolymerization (TDP), and you can Google those too if you're interested -- my point is that they're wrong, but lot's of wrong things get propagated in the internet.

BD is not fuel cells, but it can be put into the existing fuel distribution system NOW, whereas the "hydrogen economy" (which I believe to be a pipe dream, supported and propped in much the same way that Micro$oft props up Apple so they can point to Apple and say, "Look, we do too have competition!") is pie-in-the-sky BS that is years -- many years -- away from any kind of mass use.

I'm biased: I've spent a great deal of time educating myself on BD, and I help maintain our local BD distribution point -- for fuel brought in from Seattle, and whose feedstock is soy oil from the Midwest. Stoopid, but true. The Seattle area has, I've read, the highest concentration of BD users in the US. I'm hours away from Seattle out in the boonies, but I can get our three 260 gal totes filled every month by a tanker that comes by.

Today, by far, most US BD is made from soy feedstock. Soy is not the best feedstock for BD production, it does not have as high a yield per acre as several other plants, and the fuel produced is a compromise of qualities -- there are better alternatives. However, raising soybeans is well understood in the US, and the soybean industry has a mature infrastructure that is partially subsidized by our tax dollars, so soy oil it is . . . for the time being.

Um, where was I?

The Datsun diesel 720s: I owned one '82 1.5 yrs ago that I bought ($400, from Mercer Island, 86k original miles) with a trashed transmission (read my other posts on this trans, it's the same guts as in the Maximas, and indeed as several other Nissan products for many years, and has several weak points), and I did a decent job of fixing it up, then sold it to a local ($2000). It has run B100 exclusively since I purchased it (1000 miles by me, 14k miles by the new owner), and if you've read the above, you know about at least a couple issues with B100 use and old vehicles.

I bought another '82 720 diesel four months ago for a friend ($160, Bellingham, non-runner) with a bunch of problems, mainly a stalled Injection Controller Motor and a lot of cut/bypassed fuel lines, and huge rust issues, still looking for a donor gas truck to do a drivetrain transplant), and after doing minimal work on it and getting it running well enough to vet the engine, I compiled a list of items it needs, and sold it to a coworker ($400), who is running it on B100 and also working down the list. It's a real timesink, but he wanted a small diesel PU, and there just aren't a lot around (for a pretty decent list I put together two years ago, see this post of mine and scroll down about three screens worth to see the list.). It's not much of a PU, but it does what he wants.

I try to get local folks to see the long-term wisdom of BD use now.

BD is not cheap, if you don't own the feedstock. We are selling it for $3.49/gal right now. As BD goes, that's pretty cheap, and it's not (right now) competive price-wise with PD. It was actually cheaper than PD right after Katrina, around here anyway. But I don't proselytize BD on its economic benefits anyway.

If you have your own feedstock (or can procure it, as in fryer grease, donut shop oil, etc.), if you don't mind working with hazardous materials (lye, methanol, which combine to form methoxide, and it's not nice stuff to have in your basement unless you really, really mind your Ps & Qs), and have the space and patience (and the ability to compost or otherwise safely dispose of the glycerin -- about 10-15% of the raw feedstock is going to convert to the base stock of bar soap!), then you can certainly save a pile of money by producing your own biodiesel. Lots of people are successfully doing it. There are excellent kit plans (Girl Mark has the best by far), kits, and entire fuel processors available for BD production -- and not a few rip-offs too, this being a fad kind of thing right now. There are all kinds of downsides too, but again, if you have the feedstock or can get it for a reasonable effort, and if you use enough fuel to make it worthwhile (say, fleet operation or home heating) then producing your own BD can make sense.

I have a whole list of things that I don't like about burning SVO/WVO and the crap that's being sold by one outfit that's supposed to "convert" feedstock to safe fuel without transesterification, but I'll spare you and admonish you to read a lot before going down the SVO/WVO and additives path -- beware, Luke, the Dark Side of the Force, etc etc. Burn glycerine and you get acrolein out the tailpipe, and injector coking, ring land coking, IP input shafts breaking, lube oil contamination . . . now there, I said I wasn't going to get into that list . . . do your own research, but I'm exciteable about the whole "put the fryer oil into your tank and drive" crap. Even Elsbett and Greasel don't convince me, they haven't got all the bases covered, but they're still selling a lot of hardware to hopefuls -- for the wrong reasons, IMO.

[ . . . more deep breaths . . . ]

As I've written somewhere else on this site, and on other sites, the Bosch (Diesel-Kiki, under Bosch license) VE IPs are weak: they leak. They leak in normal usage. They leak a lot faster when using "low-sulphur" (today's PD in the US) and "ultra-low-sulphur" (ULSD, we all get it nationwide in Sep-06 by Fed mandate). There is a thread on this site (and many others) on this topic.

I have run some B100 in my LD28, and now my IP leaks, presumably at the front seal. In my opinion, it would have leaked anyway but the B100 definitely pushed it over the edge fast. I still run B100 in it (it doesn't leak much, and I don't drive it 2k/year these days). I have the last (AFAIK) two NOS 1982 injection pumps available in the US, in storage -- I bought them for a song ($850 for the pair) two years back from a liquidator. My idea was to swap one in for mine -- this was before mine was leaking, mind you.

Now, if my leak is the front seal, I'll probably just replace the seal. I bought the Bosch Book on distributor-type IPs (ie the VE series) and have read it cover-to-cover twice in the last month, and now know more about it than any sane person should -- it's not a rebuilder's book, it's all theory, and it's good, if you can get by the weird translated German. Recommended if you're interested in these critters, and it's only $23. Anyway, now that I understand the nine major systems in the VE IP, changing the seal is no big deal. And if I screw it up, I still have three other IPs with which to work.

[ . . . ]

Yeah, if you run SVO/WVO (or really bad BD that hasn't been washed well, or is not fully reacted), you will have problems getting the engine started -- and fuel system and overall engine life is reduced too, but most people only focus on the starting issue.

To my way of thinking, home BD production for home heating make more sense than for use as a vehicle fuel. But read up, there are drawbacks, too.

It's gotten late enough, and I have two other projects to research tonight, so I'll stop now. I'm not even going to proof this post, I'll edit it later.

Regards,
Al S.

+++++++++++++++

3) Posted (11/27/2005) WASTE OIL CONVERSIONS

Author: Al Savage

If you don't let the WVO sit in the injection system, corrosion of the pump & injectors is minimized. Which is one reason why you want to switch back to petrodiesel (or BD) long before shutdown. WVO is acidic.

The Elsbett kit (and maybe the Greasel? I don't research WVO much) modifies the injectors for use with WVO. Why? Because WVO is more viscous and does not atomize as well, even at 2000 PSI. Poorly atomized fuel cokes up small passages, leading to worse atomization. Meanwhile, poor combustion, smoke, and engine oil dilution.

Cold WVO cokes up piston ring lands, reduces engine life, increases blowby, etc. Don't switch over to WVO until it's been brought up to temp.

Engine oil life is reduced when using WVO.

WVO emits many times the amount of acrolein as petrodiesel, so it's not cleaner by a long stretch. I'm not interested in running a dirtier fuel, regardless of the "free-ness" of it. WVO isn't free especially these days with the competition for it so heavy. You may have missed the recent California legislation making transport of WVO without a license illegal. A.I.R. license is about $200 per year. No lie. The rendering companies are fighting back, and they've got lobbyists.

But aside from the reduced engine life, extra hardware, switch-over in both startup & shutdown, decreased oil change intervals, and increased acrolein emissions, WVO is great! (mild sarcasm)

All that being said, the SD2x is supposed to be one of the easier engines to tolerate WVO. The inline pump especially is very durable, like the similar IP in the old MB. You could probably run a lot of things through it and it'll run. Maybe not well, but run.

Regards,
Al S.

[philip]

An experienced mechanic on "Mercedes Club of America Forum" had this to say about a WVO car brought to him that was a blind purchase on eBay. I have taken a little liberty to edit out non engine/WVO related discoveries about this particular W123 Mercedes.

( http://mbca.cartama.net/showthread.php?t=14035 )


"My First Veggie Car

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Well folks, the inevitable happened. Someone brought me a "veggie converted" car. Since I had not been personally exposed to one, I've been checking my tongue. Well the gloves are coming off. Now that I've faced one, I can can verify my opinion.

"Running a diesel on vegetable oil is a proven science akin to the potato-powered clock."

Now I'll give this: This car IS a beater. I can only speculate what maintenance abuses this poor thing had since 1977 in it's 256,000+ stopped odometer miles. Green coolant, coffee colored brake fluid, Napa fuel filter etc. The conversion is homemade, not a kit that is sold. It was in an unkempt condition, with spilt WASTE vegetable oil in several places. The previous owner....I don't know what to say. The new owner bought it off Ebay without inspection because it was "converted" -

I did a valve adjustment and drove it 6 miles. This thing is so sick...

(snip)

The valve adjustment helped. I won't go so far as to blame the veggie oil for the worst cam wear I've ever felt, but I had to set the lash as the best average clearence I could, since they were all uneven from side to side.

This is one of those two-tank servo switching systems. This car survived being shut down on WASTE vegetable oil and parked for an extended time. (You are supposed to "purge" the system with diesel first) It's only been running diesel since they managed to get it running again.

Described above is rational fact. Here's the op-ed. Skip if you're sensitive.

Beyond the concept I'm a purist who likes proper fixes and original parts, and the mere thought and sight of jerry-rigged repairs annoy and disgust me, let's approach the asthetics of my experience.

I DO NOT GET IT. I cannot fathom coping with this nauseating practice. This car was so disgusting. It smelt so bad, worse than I imagined. It's like being by a grease dumpster behind the KFC, you know, the kind with globs all over it and the surrounding pavement? Every mile you drive, wafting around. I couldn't wait for it to leave. It's almost enough to make me avoid any oil-fried foods, some of which I'm rather fond of.

I'm sure commercial biodiesel development is a part of our future, and will be something benefical to watch develop. But this route of vehicle sacriledge is just so very wrong. This gives processing WASTE veggie oil into the most suitable, non-modification-requiring-fuel possible relatively credible by comparison.

So with all these folks who go on and on about great it is and campaign for taking good and decent MB diesel cars and defiling them on a misconvuluted idealism, there seems to be little resistance. The average person who only observes this phenomenom from afar is too polite and/or respectful to object.

I however, WILL take a firm stance against this abomination. Perhaps one day I will meet the experimental fuel enthusiast who makes practical application of these methods who ALSO has a deep rooted appreciation and respect for these cars as designed, but for the most part they seem to mix like oil and water. I'm not going to be swayed into this sort of activity. I refuse to learn how to service or fix them, I will not. Bring it to me when you want it put back to together properly. Otherwise, I'm only going to properly service the areas of the car not related to a kooky-mangled fuel system.

Call me extremist. It's a compliment. I desire most to represent and continue things as designed and should be. You can choose to not patronize me in protest, or; cope with my standards and opinions and utilize whatever benefits I offer that you wish. I will remain consistant and true the W123 in original design, for anyone who wants it.

Now for this car. I was asked what it needed, I suggested parting it out. He says he'll get another. I actually encouraged he focus his attention on processing the oil into suitable fuel and leaving the car alone. It seemed all I could hope for.

[philip]

Gee ... here's another negative view on WVO from Iowa State University:

Quoted from:

http://mbca.cartama.net/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=37


"Running diesel engines on vegetable oil has been tried with failure every time. Read this from Iowa State University.

Attempts have been made to use raw oils in engines since at least 1900 when the Otto company demonstrated the use of peanut oil in a diesel engine at the Paris Exhibition.

Most experiments of this type have shown that diesel engines will run on raw oils but usually the performance will degrade over time. After a period of several hundred hours, engine inspection shows large amounts of fuel dilution of the lubricating oil causing thickening and sludge formation. Piston rings are usually seized or broken, because of excessive carbon deposits. Fuel injection equipment can be coated with varnish deposits. The best experience with using raw oils in engine seems to come from indirect-injection engines and using only 5-10% blends of the oil in diesel fuel. Most of the problems associated with the use of raw oils in engines are caused by higher viscosity. It has been suggested that these problems can be addressed by heating the oil (usually with engine coolant) and starting and stopping the engine with regular diesel fuel. This approach has been used with some success although long-term durability has not been proven.

The following references describe the effects that raw oils can have on engines:

[1] Baldwin JD, Klimkowski CH, Keesey, MA. Fuel additives for vegetable oil-fueled compression ignition engines. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 224, ASAE Publication 4-82, Fargo, ND, 1982.

[2] Baranescu RA, Lusco JJ. Performance, durability and low temperature evaluation of sunflower oil as a diesel fuel extender. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 312-328, Aug, 1982.

[3] Fort EF, Blumberg PN. Peformance and durability of a turbocharged diesel fueled with cottonseed oil blends. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 374-382, Aug, 1982.

[4] Fuls J, Hawkins CS, Hugo FJC. Tractor engine performance on sunflower oil fuel. J Agric. Engng. Res. Vol 30, 29, 1984.

[5] Graboski MS, McCormick RL. Combustion of fat and vegetable oil derived fuels in diesel engines. Progress in Energy and Combustion Science 1998;24:125-64.

[6] Hemmerlein N, Korte V, Richter H, Schroeder G. Performance, exhaust emissions and durability of modern diesel engines running on rapeseed oil. Society of Automotive Engineers Paper No. 910848. SAE, Warrendale, PA, 1991.

[7] Humke AL, Barsic NJ. Performance and emissions characteristics of a naturally aspirated diesel engine with vegetable oil fuels--(part 2). Society of Automotive Engineers Paper No. 810955. SAE, Warrendale, PA, 1981.

[8] Perkins LA, Peterson CL, Auld DL. Durability testing of transesterfied winter rape oil (Brassica Napus L.) as fuel in small bore, multi-cylinder, DI, CI engines. SAE paper No. 911764. Warrendale, PA:SAE, 1991.

[9] Pestes NM, Stanislao J. Piston ring deposits when using vegetable oil as a fuel. Journal of Testing and Evaluation 12(2):61-68, 1984.

[10] Peterson CL. Vegetable oil as a diesel fuel: status and research priorities. Transactions of the ASAE 1986;29(5):1413-22.

[11] Peterson CL, Wagner GL, Auld DL. Vegetable oil substitutes for diesel fuel. Transactions of the ASAE, Vol. 26(2), 322, 1983.

[12] Radu R, Mircea Z. The use of sunflower oil in diesel engines. SAE paper No. 972979, 1997.

[13] Ryan III TW, Bagby MO. Identification of chemical changes occurring during the transient injection of selected vegetable oils. Society of Automotive Engineers Paper No. 930933. SAE, Warrendale, PA, 1993.
*
[14] Ryan TW, Callahan TJ, Dodge LG. Characterization of vegetable oils for use as fuels in diesel engines. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 70-81, Aug, 1982.

[15] Ryan TW, Dodge LG, Callahan, TJ. The effects of vegetable oil properties on injection and combustion in two different diesel engines. JAOCS, Vol 61, 1610, 1984.

[16] Schlick ML, Hanna MA, Schinstock JL. Soybean and sunflower oil performance in a diesel engine. Transactions of the ASAE 1988;31(5):1345-9.

[17] Tahir AR, Lapp HM, Buchanan LC. Sunflower oil as a fuel for compression ignition engines. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 82-91, Aug, 1982.

[18] Van Der Walt AN, Hugo FJC. Attempts to prevent injector cooking with sunflower oil by engine modifications and fuel additives. Vegetable Oil Fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 230, ASAE Publication 4-82, Fargo, NC, 1982.

[19] Varde KS. Some correlation of diesel engine performance with injection characteristics using vegetable oils as fuel. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 303-311, Aug, 1982.

[20] Walter J, Aakre P, Derry J. The 1981 flower power field testing program. Vegetable oil fuels--proceedings of the International Conference on Plant and
Vegetable Oils as Fuels, 384-393, Aug, 1982.

[21] Ziejewski M, Goettler H, Pratt GL. Comparative analysis of the long-term performance of a diesel engine on vegetable oil based alternative fuels. Society of Automotive Engineers Paper No. 860301. SAE, Warrendale, PA, 1986.

[22] Ziejewski M, Kaufman KR. Vegetable oils as a potential alternate fuel in direct injection diesel engines. Society of Automotive Engineers Paper No. 831357. SAE, Warrendale, PA, 1983. "


http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/A.html

[asavage]

It has been suggested that these problems can be addressed by heating the oil (usually with engine coolant) and starting and stopping the engine with regular diesel fuel. This approach has been used with some success although long-term durability has not been proven.

It has been suggested elsewhere that no real research has been conducted on systems that use reliable preheating and petrodiesel startup/shutdown.

Given that most people (most) can't even be bothered to perform normal, recommended automotive maintenance -- even the basics that the mfgr documents and recommends -- I don't think that most SVO/WVO conversions last all that long. Sure, there are some folks -- a few -- that have gotten years of WVO runtime on their rigs, but by and large I bet those folks that have, have crossed their Is and dotted their Ts in the maintenance department. Certainly, I have seen some real bad butchery done in the name of "free fuel".

I'll say it again: I think the SVO movement has sent more serviceable passenger diesels to the scrapyard than any other single cause.

I remain an (ASTM) biodiesel supporter.

[Zoltan]

Elsbett offers 2 years warranty on their conversion to straight veggie oil. However, I didn't see any hard data... they reference 50 million miles run on veggie oil with their conversion as proof that it works, but again no hard data. Albeit I didn't check the German site, perhaps they have something there. They do have a kit for SD22: http://www.elsbett.com/us/online-shop.html
916 euro that includes 16% VAT. for us, they would take out the 16%, so it would be 769 euro.

I don't know if Philip saw their site, it's worth checking it out. I found particularly interesting that they carve out the combustion chamber inside the piston head. They talk about duothermal combustion... sounds French to me, but perhaps makes sense to some of you

[asavage]

Elsbett offers 2 years warranty on their conversion to straight veggie oil.

Two years on what? Not your engine!

I'd say that the folks who lay out a grand for their kit, and then install it, are more likely to read the fine print and do the maint, than the messes I've seen around here passing for "free fuelers".

[Zoltan]

Scope of Warranty

The warranty on the ELSBETT service pledge extends to two years for private customers and one year for business customers. Warranty claims may apply to direct and justifiable consequential damages, such as possible (even if unlikely) motor damage.

But, of course, any warranty is as good as a piece of paper ... It would be interesting to know if anyone had an engine damage or severe performance decline and tried to call upon this warranty and what happened... etc.

I am not a big fan of SVO either, but the ELSBETT is working on this over 25 years and I don't think they would still be in business if they failed to deliver. Of course they have standardize values for veggie oil quality etc, so it seems like they did quite extensive research to make sure that their stuff works. If I started to grow oil palms here in HI as a business, then I would be inclined to experiment with their conversion, but sans that, I am not interested.

[asavage]

I'm uninterested in an alternative fuel (SVO) that pollutes (acrolien) worse that the fuel it replaces. ASTM BD doesn't have that problem, unless you want to count NOx emissions, and that's a different topic altogether, because NOx isn't (AFAIK) a problem unless it's combined with HCs: reduce the HCs, and NOx is harmless -- at least, that's what I've read.

[philip]

SNIP
I don't know if Philip saw their site, it's worth checking it out. I found particularly interesting that they carve out the combustion chamber inside the piston head. They talk about duothermal combustion... sounds French to me, but perhaps makes sense to some of you

Might you email it to me or copy/paste this "duo-thermal" theory here?

I've read some pretty amazing things about diesel combustion theory. A number of times, it amounted to little more than giving an old phenomenon a new name.

[Zoltan]

Here it is: Elsbett duothermic combustion system.

BTW: I emailed them the whole page of references you quoted from Iowa State Univ and asked them what they had to counter it. We'll see.

[philip]

Here it is: Elsbett duothermic combustion system.

BTW: I emailed them the whole page of references you quoted from Iowa State Univ and asked them if they had anything to counter it with. We'll see.

The Elsbett duothermal description reads similar to a number of other rehashes of well established mainstream knowledge. Of course rookies will lap up the Elsbett claims as unique. Elbsbett did not discover or engineer any new theory or design.

Refer to thread: "Is this a prechamber or swhirlchamber engine?"

[philip]

Piston ring life in any diesel can be compromised drastically when you use "dirty" Waste Vegetable Oil. The abnormal wear here occured in an SD22 running WVO for about 25k miles. The pistons were of the 3 ring variety with the steel ring carrier.

Photo courtesy of G.Guest

[philip]

I found and have added to this thread Al's best lecture railing against SVO/WVO conversion! Enjoy. This is the voice of experience.

Al levels both barrels, #1 of 3

Then on a kinder note...

Biodiesel concerns

[Zoltan]

Here it is: Elsbett duothermic combustion system.

BTW: I emailed them the whole page of references you quoted from Iowa State Univ and asked them what they had to counter it. We'll see.

I got a response from Mr Elsbett himself and all he could say was that he offered warranty on converted engines. I think this speaks for itself ...