Mechanical IP timing adapter

[asavage]

Dr.Jones (Joe) has modified a tool designed for timing the VW incarnation of the Bosch VE IP, in order to use it for timing an LD28 in the car, the Nissan tool Part No. KV11229352 not being available anymore.

Joe, can you explain the purpose of the hose clamp?

[Dr. Jones]

The hose clamp is in place of a weld. Underneath the clamp is roughly an eigth inch (per side) of the cut out materail picture#6. Picture #6 is what was there before the hose clamp. But if your going to go this route you'll have to make a couple of washers (cut flat on one side) to space the tool from the injection timing port so that the hose clamp doesn't interfere with the tool seating properly on the injection timing port(ITP). Also while install the clamp you have to make sure you have the pieces square and together(I used a bench vise to hold the pieces square and together) and tighten the clamp down good so your sure you don't have any movement. Picture 14 is the size of the hole that the adapter(lengthing piece that screws into dial indicator) runs through, pictures #1, 8, 10 and I think some others. This tool does the trick but because of the motor mount and oil-cooler has to be installed a little akwardly 1. adapter, lengthing piece and dial indicator need to lowered into position with only the lengthing piece tight into the dial indicator(adapter loose) 2. adapter must be threaded into the ITP with indicator and lengthing section in place. 3 finally adapter needs to be tightened around dial indicator after this is tight you can use the dial indicator to tighten the adapter into the ITP (1/4 turn or so just to maje sure everything is tight before beginning, just remember that its a dial indicator and not a wrench, so be easy with it). I'm sure if someone had some time to play with the idea something much simpler could be designed such as a quick connect, if someone wants to do this and I could be of any help just let me know.

[glenlloyd]

Is this custom extension needed because 1) the short dial gauge itself wont attach at the IP port or 2) because a standard length extension won't work because of oil cooler etc.

thanks
steve a

[Dr. Jones]

Simply put, both. The ITP is threaded and you want the tool to be set exactly straight so the adapter is essentail for two reasons 1. to allow to screw the dial indicator into the ITP (because even if you put threads onto dial indicator you wouldn't be able to screw it into the ITP because of the motor mount. As far as the standard length extension if assuming, I understand you correctly, I don't believe they make the one for the maxima any more or it is very pricey. The one in the pictures was purchased from ZDmax tools (roughly $100 including the indicator and case which the indicator is pretty nice on its own) and is for a Volvo, Volkswagen, and maybe something else. If I were you and wanted one of these tools I would talk to Al, because I know he plans on fabing something for himself or you can just purchase the adapter w/o dial indicator from ZDMAX just make sure you will have the tools to cut it (the city I live in has a pretty good technical college and they cut it on one of their lathes for the experience, pretty good deal) and that whatever indicator you plan on using in it will fit.

[asavage]

I stared hard at the pics, thought about what you said, and finally pic No. 6's text of "cut out . . . " made sense.

The original tool looked like this:



You cut out much of the original tool's body, in order to shorten it to fit behind the LD28's IP and still miss the motor mount & oil filter adapter.

I just didn't have enough cluze.

[asavage]

I went ahead and ordered the $20 adapter -- $26 w/shipping. I look forward to turning it into smaller pieces and shavings. I already own two dial indicators.

[Dr. Jones]

I be in the shop tommorrow and I'll take some pictures of the pieces w/o the clamp theres not much left and the fit is still kind of snug but it works. Maybe, I'll see if I can borrow a light to get those #'s with the tach and time does this double as a tach at the same time? If you are going to set it with the indicator and then shoot it maybe we can compare #'s. Oh, yeah why I started writing this message make sure your indicator will fit in the adapter before you start cutting it probably this is probably a waste of my typing skills, but I'd hate to see you cut it up and it not fit. I have a standard Indicator and a metric and only the metric will work with this tool. I'm not sure if indicators are standard sizes or what.

[asavage]

[to follow the foregoing, you'll need to first read this section of the FAQ on Injection timing of the LD28. Then:

c) Because there is no official "piezo pulse method" timing number for the LD28 -- we're supposed to use the static timing method outlined in the FSM, using a tool that Dr.Jones has fabbed from a similar tool for other Bosch VE IPs -- I don't know what "normal" is, when using the Tach-N-Time, because I've never had a freshly-correctly-timed-by-the-book LD28 available to me to cross-check what timing the Tach-N-Time will yield. Naturally, Nissan only provides reference numbers for the mechanical timing method, not for timing via luminosity proble nor via injection pulse adapter. We need to develop our own numbers.

That's why Dr.Jones has one of my Tach-N-Time units: he's just mechanicaly timed one or both of his LD28s (one manual trans, the other AT; timing is different for each), and he's going to tell me (us) what the reported-by-Tach-N-Time timing is at idle. I will eventually mechanically time one of my LD28s, and I'll do the same. With that data, we will then be able to check for correct injection timing casually on any of our rigs using a Tach-N-Time rather than opening up the ass-end of the IP (and disconnecting/reconnecting the Cold Start Device's control cable) and using fragile tools and precision guesswork to merely check the IP timing. This will make timing checks a lot easier.]

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Yes, it will display a digital indication of RPM in one window, and the degrees offset in the other.

If you are going to set it with the indicator and then shoot it maybe we can compare #'s.

Yes, that's the plan. You & I will both do independent measurements, and if they're close, we can continue to use the numbers for future use of the Tach-N-Time.

Oh, yeah why I started writing this message make sure your indicator will fit in the adapter before you start cutting it probably this is probably a waste of my typing skills, but I'd hate to see you cut it up and it not fit. I have a standard Indicator and a metric and only the metric will work with this tool. I'm not sure if indicators are standard sizes or what.

Good point, and I'll know more when the adapter arrives late this week.

[Dr. Jones]

O.k. just got in with the pictures.


[/img]

My tool mostly resembled the one at the top of your post.

[asavage]

Thanks, Joe: my confusion is abated, mystery solved. Now I want one of my own -- soon, Al, soon!

If I can stay away from the computer long enough to get anything done -- I rebuilt an SD22 alternator three weeks ago, and despite having rebuilt a couple dozen alternators successfully on other rigs over the years, this thing had me whuuped. I finally built a testing jig (table saw motor, belt, alternator mounting, tension spring, chutzpah) to do my own spin-up. Finally got it nailed, but it's not an easy one to do. Well, that ate up a chunk of time. And like that.

[asavage]

. . . make sure your indicator will fit in the adapter before you start cutting it probably this is probably a waste of my typing skills, but I'd hate to see you cut it up and it not fit. I have a standard Indicator and a metric and only the metric will work with this tool. I'm not sure if indicators are standard sizes or what.

Your warning was well to be heeded: the adapter requires 8mm (5/16") diameter body, and the one dial indicator I can lay my hands on (the one I bought in 1977) is 3/8" dia. I'll just pick up another dial indicator -- eBay, here I come.

[Dr. Jones]

Hey, I guess it wasn't wasted typing. I been trying to track down a gasket set for my intake and am going to try Nissan tommorow. Then I will be able to shoot that car. I was thinking about it and was wondering if I have "timing chain stretch" will this affect my pulse reading? wttysl (well... talk to yas later)

[asavage]

The IP is belt-driven from the crank, so nothing in the cam drive will affect the IP timing.

The intake gaskets (plenum and manifold-to-head) are available (IIRC) from the aftermarket. NAPA has 'em: NGA MS16052


It's about $9, and it's supposed to include the plenum gasket. I think I bought mine separately, but I can't remember.

BTW, if you need the EGR gasket (takes two), they're difficult to find. NAPA CRB 225210 is (I think) the right one, and I had to order mine from Denver, so my local NAPA has nine of them in stock.



Let me know if you need them, and I'll buy and ship a couple -- I want to help out this store with these, since they kind of lost money getting me the one I wanted, by having to buy a box of them.

[asavage]

I picked up this dial indicator from eBay today:



It has the 8mm stem that I need to work with the generic IP adapter I'd bought.

[goglio704]

Other than the injector lines, what would stop a person from using a depth micrometer to make this check?