Diesel leak at the Speed Timer cover plate - Bosch VE

[windsock]

Hi all,

Just repaired a major leak on my Bosch VE IP on the LD28 in the Land Rover. I couldn't work out where it was coming from so after a real good clean off with a water blaster and poking around up there with a torch while underneath it running I found the cover plate of the speed timer (pressure side) was leaking.

Digging around in the info I have here I found the seal was an o-ring. On taking off the cover I couldn't see anything wrong and I thought maybe I was wrong and the leak was elsewhere.. After I wiped it down, I found pitting and erosion of the o-ring to the point where only a small amount of material was holding it intact. I think the eroded material was almost certainly still in place and jelly-like before I wiped it.


Is this an age thing, a fuel issue, or is the moreys fuel additive I use occasionally causing this? Anyone else experienced this type of o-ring failure?

I had two spare VE IPs sitting on their respective blocks and I removed the o-ring from the parts engine. It was still good and was used as a replacement o-ring till I can get a new one in town to replace it.

Cheers,

Phil

[windsock]

Hi again,

Since posting this I have had a few guys around here that I have shown ask whether it was pinched or damaged mechanically in any way. Personally, I'd love that to be the case as it would lead me away from the prospect of two similarly damaged o-rings inside being the same condition as this one.

I can't see it being installation damage for a few reasons.

• It has only just started leaking and as far as I know it is the original o-ring dating from 1986.
  
  The 'seams' of the o-ring are starting to open each side of the eroded material which leads me to believe it is degradation rather than mechanical.
  
  Mechanical damage - crushing, or cutting would leave material behind - I admit, I didn't look real close before wiping it down but I didn't see any loose stuff on it on intial inspecation.
  
  Damage looks like 'pitting' and the damage is also, to a minor extent, on the other side of that part of the o-ring and it appears to be hollow between the two bits of damage.

Glad to say that the 2nd hand replacement o-ring is working and no leaking at the moment.


It is the o-ring on he pressure side of the pump where it states 'pump housing' - bottom right hand side of pump body.

Cheers,

Phil

[rlaggren]

It sounds like degradation. O-rings come in different matierals, of course, and I believe the common nitril is not the most chemical/petro resistant. Viton perhaps.

I may be able to find a run-down on o-rings I saved when researching A/C stuff, but I think if you do some searching you'll find the info pretty easy.

Best luck.

Rufus

[asavage]

If I didn't know the history of that IP, I'd have guessed that it was a cheap replacement o-ring. I've seen that happen to o-rings from the Harbour Freight-type o-ring assortments: very, very cheap stuff.

Barring that, my next guess would be degradation from fuel additives or biodiesel, in which case I'd expect more leaks in future. The deadly one is the large one on the cast steel distributor head, because it is tricky to replace and requires cleanliness on a scale not needed for other automotive repairs. The top cover molded o-ring is similarly hard and is an other common leak point on the VE-style IPs.

(click on image for larger)

[rlaggren]

Below is a link listing common sealing/gasket materials and usages.

http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm

[windsock]

It sounds like degradation. O-rings come in different matierals, of course, and I believe the common nitril is not the most chemical/petro resistant. Viton perhaps.

I may be able to find a run-down on o-rings I saved when researching A/C stuff, but I think if you do some searching you'll find the info pretty easy.

Best luck.

Rufus

Hi Rufus and Al,

After 500km using a new o-ring (am assuming nitrile until proven otherwise by ongoing no-leak) the leak is no longer a problem. Am waiting for the diesel shop I go to to open fully after the holiday break before I enquire about viton kits. Have read about the Bosch kits (DPK-???) and have a couple of spare pumps here so may try to obtain and replace seals on the better of the two and have it handy if all the other seals go the way of the intial drip.

I'll check in on here about how I get one with the quest for the VE IP 'holy grail' - a viton kit...

Cheers for the advice and links... once again the forum is proving the difference between walking and trucking...

Phil

[windsock]

Just following on from this initial seal leak problem. After fxing this leak successfully I did an extended two day road trip covering 800+km in that time and I developed a bad leak again and I suspect it is from the main shaft seal. Diesel appears to be dripping from the timing belt cover area.

In tracking down seal kits i came across this site that references the zexel parts etc.

http://www.zexel.com/fastmovingparts.htm

This website also has cross-referencing between Nissan, and Bosch parts and lists whether available or not. Worth a look.

I have got the main seal kit ZEXEL Part Number 146600-1120 = BOSCH Part Number 9 461 610 423 and the main shaft seal ZEXEL Part Number 146601-0700 = BOSCH Part Number 9 461 615 373

FYI - When opening this website you got to enter the main number on your IP. Will look like this or similar - NP-VE6/9F2500RNP34. If you cannot see what your number is then entering this number, off my pump brings up the numbers above.

I now have a couple of bags full of seal bits for the VE IP reseal job that is about to take place. Total cost was NZD36 which includes sales tax. All seals are black but I am confident they'll withstand the rigors of the ULSD here in NZ as they were made in Japan and were sold to me by our local Bosch Diesel repair place knowing I had a ULSD derived leak.

I'll keep a log of how this repair job goes over time.

Cheers,

Phil

[rlaggren]

We is watching... <g>

Thanks for the info on the parts site.


Rufus

[asavage]

The shaft seal usually does not come with the seal kits for the VE-style IPs.

See this thread for shaft seal information. The IP used on the Maxima is an odd size, not available from suppliers of VW IP parts. Matt has some real, viton-material IP shaft seals.

[windsock]

G'day all,

Sorry for not posting in a while. Got a new job, got ill, got better, got busy with new job, and so got the Autokraft Bosch folk to do the IP work for me as I simply didn't have the time but had an idle Visa...

So, invoice for the work, NZD921 which includes the following listed work as stated on the invoice:

Clean pump, partially dismantle and inspect components. Pump internal components look clean and in excellent condition. Advise on price to re-seal and bench test pump and service injectors. Reassemble pump using new seals and o-rings throughout. Mount pump to bench test, test, and adjust to Zexel test specifications. Remove from bench, pressure test and seal adjustments.

Dismanle injectors, clean, and inspect components. Polich nozzles and needles. Reassemble all componenets, re-test and set opening pressures to specification. Supply required washers.

The price included the sales tax of 12.5%. I had a quote from them for the injectors at NZD350 so that puts the work on the IP at NZD571. Current exchange rate between NZD and USD indicates NZD1 buys USD0.57 so that gives it some relativity for you guys.

Status of the work so far goes something like this (remember this is in a 110 Landrover not a car - http://nissandiesel.dyndns.org/viewtopic.php?t=2013).

Cleared the radiator and all other bits and pieces away from IP so I could remove for reseal.

Got busy with a new job (was made redundant in Sept 08 started new job in Late Jan 09) so no progress for a couple of weeks. Got ill with flu so still no work by me on IP. Got tired of looking at landrover sitting doing nothing so bit the bullet (Visa) and took it to the shop for the work as above.

While at the shop (for 8 days [includes the weekend and communication re the work to be done and discussion on final price etc]) I figured I had time to pull the engine out (was halfway there with clearance for IP anyway) to check where an oil leak was coming from between engine and gearbox. Turned out it was exactly where I figured. However, what I hadn't figured on was the sight of the spigot bush loose ( ) and rattling around on the end of the input shaft ( ). Thus I had the reason for the oil leak as the input shaft moved on an out of centre wobble for many kilometres!

At this stage I must indicate I did take photos but the xD card on the camera malfunctioned spectacularly and I lost many photos I had not downloaded to the HDD

Anyhow, a quick (off-topic) photo for interest. This is the spigot bush. This bush was pressed into the LD28 flywheel because the input shaft of the landrover was too short to reach the crank and if it had, it would've been too fat to fit and being case hardened would not have taken kindly to machining.



So, anyway, I now had the engine out and a defunct gearbox. I figured I'd take the gearbox out and find the splines causing all the backlash... Thats a whole 'nother story and I'd rather not relive the 'mares from that exploration and the ensuing bills.

Back on topic.... IP is installed (See notes here for timing mark issues I had), injectors are installed...



Work on the IP was very tidy and as I have not yet run it, still to be finally run-tested.

Work remaining to be done on the engine - replace sump with a slightly modified one to avoid collision with front diff.

While it is on the floor, i just need to take it into the workshop again (in the back on the van) to get them to time it all with the plunger dial gauge and I'll then be ready for when the gearbox comes back from its rebuild and I should be mobile again sometime after easter I hope . Lost lots of good fishing/camping weather with the truck sitting idle, looking forward to the drive-time the last of autumn here will no doubt give.

Cheers,

Phil

[rlaggren]

Sounds like a whole new ball game. I take it you're putting a longer input shaft into the tranny?

Rufus

[asavage]

I take it you're putting a longer input shaft into the tranny?

There may not be one available.

I've had that problem on swaps before -- both times, I machined a custom bushing. If concentricity is maintained, there's no problem piloting on the flywheel rather than the crankshaft.

(In the States, we call that a "pilot bearing".)

===========================

It's interesting to see an LD28 without a factory oil cooler. At first glance, it looks like and L24 or L28!

[windsock]

Sounds like a whole new ball game. I take it you're putting a longer input shaft into the tranny?

Rufus

Hi Rufus,

No, input shaft is getting all the bronze bushing material machined off it after it had sppun in the old bush for goodness knows how many likometres. I found out after I pulled it it was made of 'normal' bronze and not the pressed bushing bronze. Not good for the company that did that work for me at the start of the process a year ago. and certainly not good for me now. I am getting a new composite bush turned and pressed into the LD28 flywheel. It'll comprise of a larger steel component pressed intothe flywheel with the pressed bronzed oil impregnated bush pushed into this. Steel to steel should be a better pressing and the bronze bush will be a conventional Landrover part so not a huge cost of customisation. The gearbox rebuild alluded to in the last post was to replace a very very worn mainshaft where the output splines were 50% gone, worn off in the tranfer gearbox through a well known Landrover issue with lack of lubrication. New gearing will have cross-drilled gears for oil penetration.

Cheers,

Phil

[windsock]

Hi Al, yes, input shaft stays the same, and the custom bushing was made from the wrong type of bronze. It was made of a cast ingot machined into the spigot bush seen above and was not made of the correct oil saturated powdered bronze pressed into an ingot and machined. The things you learn after the fact huh? Workshop that did the initial work for me was given free rein to do it as I was busy at the time and I should've taken a lead on this but trusted them to do it right... expensive lesson. Pressing the bush into the flywheel was standard practice for Land rover 110 conversions and this is the first I have seen this happen - all down to wrong material wrong place.

It's interesting to see an LD28 without a factory oil cooler.

Yes, oil coolers. I have three LD28 blocks in my garage presently (includes the one going back into the truck) and none have oil cooling. In saying that htough they are not uncommon. On our equivalent of eBay (trademe.co.nz) I see oil coolers on blocks but have never bought a block with one on. All the machining on the block is done for one but just never purchased one before. I change the oil every 5000 kilometres so it is never in there till death and I never 'flog' the motor.

[asavage]

I have three LD28 blocks in my garage presently (includes the one going back into the truck) and none have oil cooling.

Interesting. The LD28s sold in the Maxima ("Bluebird", in your area) in the US 1981-83 were all shipped here with factory oil coolers, similar to the setup Nissan uses in the 280ZX Turbo.

Additionally, it seems that the some of the Nissan diesel lineup went to partial bypass filtering in 1983. Both the Sentra CD17 (introduced in the US in 1983) and the Maxima use the same oil filter, one that incorporates internal bypass filtration. More info on that is in this post. Bypass filtration is a Good Thing.