newly rebuilt Starter keeps running sometimes

Dealing with all subsystems specific to the diesel powered Datsun-Nissan 720 pickup trucks.

Moderators: plenzen, Nissan_Ranger

User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

newly rebuilt Starter keeps running sometimes

#1

Post by ecomike »

I know we have several great SD22 starter threads ( http://nissandiesel.dyndns.org/viewtopic.php?t=1075 ), but I believe after searching that this will be a new topic. Specifically the brand new, rebuilt starter, Beck/Arnley starter (Hitachi H12-68B, BA / Rockauto # 1870354) from RockAuto is giving me some trouble. The problem is new, so it may rule out an engine ring gear issue IMHO. The other (prior rebuild I bought last year from a local shop) starter had all the classic symptoms of a bad one way clutch (per Al) right out of the box. It would initially grind, making a hell of a racket, like grinding gears. That would happen on 1 out of 10 starts initially, usually first start of the morning. It got worse, down to about 1 in 3-4 starts, then would occasionally just spin the starter motor freely.

The new rebuilt (different vendor, same exact DD starter) on the first try, and on a number of subsequent tries (but not all!), would continue cranking even after I let go of the starter switch (standard jeep column mount 85 GM style start/run/ off/ acc switch tied to a key lock mechanism, both (key/lock is new, ignition switch only about 2 years old) of which are pretty new, and were, and are believed to be working fine) and sometimes even after I turned the ignition switch to off the starter kept running (2 or 3 times, earliest tests). The prior starter, although it had a bad clutch, never kept running.

I did not power up the glow plugs, as I wanted to just test the starter with multiple crank tests. Probably a good thing I did.

So what are your thoughts on the possible causes. The problem progressively dissipated after about 10- 20 start tests. The last 5 start tests were normal.

I will run more tests today. I will be taking the pulled starter to a local shop I trust to get it properly serviced.

I got a look at only the exposed ring gear area while R&Ring the starter, and while it looked a little worn (not bad for 27 years), there were no chipped teeth, or broken teeth in the visible area.
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
plenzen
Posts: 869
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

#2

Post by plenzen »

I had the same problem with mine when I got it back from the rebuilder. Mine is however a GR type, but it would engage and then stay engaged and I had to remove the battery cable to shut it off. Then, after it stopped I would hear it click and hear the bendix snap back inside. From what I found is the pinion was a tad too tight to the ring gear. It would sometimes just stall on trying to engage or, engage and stay that way. I elongated the bold holes slightly and rotated the starter away from the block making a bit more clearance between the pinion and ring gear. I also took a die grinder with a small very fine burr tip and cut approx 1/64th "relief" on the “leading” edges of the new pinion.( approx 15 – 20 degree angle). It was still a bit hesitant to engage at first but after a week or so it wore in just fine and I have not had another problem with it. If the pinion is too tight when extended it keeps the contacts in the solenoid closed making it think that the key is still in the start position.
That is my opinion anyway FWIW

Pauly
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#3

Post by ecomike »

How did you determine this "from what I found is the pinion was a tad too tight to the ring gear".
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
plenzen
Posts: 869
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

#4

Post by plenzen »

I figured it had to be something to do with the starter as that is all that I had messed with, and this problem was not there before. My starter came back "rebuilt" and was the original casing etc. It had a new clutch and pinion as well as other little bits, (to justify the $200.00 bill) but essentially the exact starter that came out. The only thing that was different that could interfere with engagement etc. was the pinion. It took some fiddling around, some head scratching, a phone call to the rebuilders, "re and re" about 100 times ( Ok maybe only 95) , brought home a forklift starter to test ( did not fit) , a couple of "searches" on this forum and I believe some advice from Al and that is where I ultimately ended up. I fiddled with it for a few days and did not come to this in a matter of minutes, although I am sure that some would. :roll:

I found my post on my orginal problem:
http://nissandiesel.dyndns.org/viewtopi ... ht=starter

Paul
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#5

Post by ecomike »

Update: I cranked it 10 times today, all 10 were normal and last two times I tried to start it (hot glow plugs), and it started right up both times, no problems both times. I let the engine warm up between the two starts.
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
plenzen
Posts: 869
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

#6

Post by plenzen »

Pretty much the same thing with mine and, as stated, once worn in and cycled a bunch of times it was as has been fine. Sounds like mine may have been a bit tighter than yours and took a bit more fiddling to get to work.

P
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#7

Post by ecomike »

Well after a several hundred starts (estimate), this starter is not wanting to shut off again. I had to disconnect the battery to kill it the last 3 starts, which took a good 60 seconds the last 2 times, nearly 3 minutes the first time to get the hood up and find the tool and pull the battery cable off. Such fun.
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
exsimguy1
Posts: 27
Joined: 14 years ago

#8

Post by exsimguy1 »

Perhaps when you heli-coiled the upper(?) hole, you inadvertently located it closer to flywheel, making the clearance tighter? A dragging drive to flywheel scenario is evident. Slighly elongating the upper hole would re-establish the correct clearance.

Terry

Sorry, re-read post and noted it was your lower hole that was heli-coiled.
Same result is probable.
1987 D21 w/1983 SD25 drivetrain
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#9

Post by ecomike »

You may be on to something there. I was thinking the same thing (quitely) to myself. Odd that it work flawlessly for a year, hundred of starts with no trouble. I still need to climb under there and check for loose bolts. I wonder if either bolt getting loose can do this?

Maybe winter cold affected tolerance too? It was heading to a 15 year low the night it first acted up.
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#10

Post by ecomike »

I just got an interesting suggestion, pull the starter and bench test it to see if it still sticks.
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#11

Post by ecomike »

Well I started to remove the starter, and I had problems reaching the top bolt. So I went to the bottom bolt, and it was a little loose, so I re-tightened both bolts, and retested the starter mounted. That only made it worse.

So I ran one more test mounted, and this time it stayed stuck, engaged, and even with battery cable pulled it stayed stuck, so I pulled the starter.

Bench tested it 4 times, and it worked perfectly. I don't think there is a problem with the flywheel (what I could see looks OK), and the starter gear looks new.

So I guess the heli-coil repair bolt alignment may be the problem after all. Now I am wondering how best to fix that issue.

I do not know if opening up the bolt hole in the starter mounting face will help any, as I think the nose of the starter housing goes up against the side of the mounting. Also there is the question of the starter moving with a slot there instead of a round hole. Also not sure if it is a side to side angle missalignment issue, or a top to bottom angle missalignment, vertical or horizontal in other words. The bolts are at roughly 12 and 6 o'clock.

Is adding the slot in the starter mounting hole my only, best option? What about a shim on the outer face at 3 o'clock? Could anything else be causing the hang up that I might have overlooked?

Thanks!
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#12

Post by ecomike »

exsimguy1 wrote:Perhaps when you heli-coiled the upper(?) hole, you inadvertently located it closer to flywheel, making the clearance tighter? A dragging drive to flywheel scenario is evident. Slightly elongating the upper hole would re-establish the correct clearance.

Terry

Sorry, re-read post and noted it was your lower hole that was heli-coiled.
Same result is probable.
How much elongating are we talking about?
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
User avatar
asavage
Site Admin
Posts: 5369
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Duvall, Wash.
Contact:

#13

Post by asavage »

Oval 1/8" with Dremel. You'll probably only use half that distance, though. Just a guess.

Locktite!
Flat washer + split lockwasher!
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.
User avatar
ecomike
Posts: 242
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Houston Tx

#14

Post by ecomike »

Here is a link to a discussion I am having on the jeep site, with links to photos I just posted. The starter tested perfectly, unmounted, 4 times, so it seems to be a mounting problem. Although it is not perfectly clear in the photos, there is a steel plate, maybe 1/16" thick between the engine and transmission housing, that extends and lays over the aluminum tranny housing opening that the starter bolts onto. The threads are in the aluminum part behind the steel plate, but the thread-cert on the bottom extends out to the face.

You can see a hint of the plate in the upper part where the holes do not line up perfectly, above the top starter mounting bolt hole. It is possible that I am not getting a flush mount at the very bottom, due to the thread cert standing out a little too far, but the other visual evidence indicates a right/left side issue as well concerning flush mounting.The lower bolt hole is the one with the thread repair insert.

It looks to me like the starter is resting more to the right side,
due to the visual gap seen on the left side.

My options seem to be a shim under the right side (.030 brass shim?), widening the bolt hole(s) (1/32-1/16") (oval shape) in the starter and shifting the starter to the right a little and trying to keep the mount flush/parallel, but I am not sure if there is clearance between the hole and part of the starter that inserts into the tranny housing/flywheel area (I need to measure and or test fit that to see if I can slide the starter to the right any), or fix (?) or remove and replace lower thread cert so that it is recessed like the threads in the above hole, so it does not keep the starter from mounting flush (?). I am not sure but it looks like the front thread may be interfering with the steel face plate, keeping it from resting flat on the aluminum housing just enough to cause me headaches, or ??????

The threads on the repaired area (lower bolt thread) do not appear to be flush, so I may just need to fix that problem, but the right versus
left side dirt and oil fingerprint says it may not be just the lower bolt mount that is the only problem? Perhaps it is the lower bolt AND the left / right alignment issue?

I have not done anything with it yet, except take these photos and test the starter. Been busy with other stuff (driving my gas jeep), but I need to make a final decision soon as to what to try first.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.p ... t244882710

Image

Image

Image

Image
Regards,

Mike

1985 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer, 2WD, retrofitted with SD-22 & 5 spd manual trans, a 4X4 Gas Wagoneer ltd. (XJ) Jeep, 4.0 L w/ AW4 auto, and now 2 spare 2wd Jeeps, 87 & 89.
plenzen
Posts: 869
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Cochrane Alberta Canada

#15

Post by plenzen »

Can you #1. Loosen the bolts that fasten the trans to the block and see if the dust/dirt cover will rotate to where it's supposed to be? I have no idea why it's the way it is, but perhaps it will move enough to help you out.
or.
#2. It appears that the top mounting bolt is leaving thread marks on the inside of the hole in the starter. Drill the top hole out by 1/64th bigger or the bottom one by 1/16th or 1/8th to allow the protruding part of the thread insert to go into the bottom hole a bit and stuff her back on with a flat and lock.
Thread inserts usually do not lend themselves to an easy repair especially where you cant get at them all that well, and, cleaning up the insert with a tap afterwards usually causes all kinds of drama.

Just a thought

Paul
Retired Pauly
Problem with being retired is that you never get a day off.
1987 D21-J SD25 KC
KJLGD21FN
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests