SD23 fuel injector 'pump' head scratch.

[igaroot]

First of all, Philip your knowledge and generosity are greatly appreciated. I've been a shadow watcher for about a year. I have finally gotten around to fixing up my 59' rambler w/ an sd23. A continued process started by a high school kid from San Diego.
We are at the final stages of getting it on the road, but we have run into what we believe is a fuel injector 'pump' issue. The engine started and ran three weeks ago. Idled and accelerated just fine.
A couple days ago we were trying to start it up and found out that the original factory "wired" injection pump was not pumping. Fuel made it to the filter and to the entry to the inj. pump. No fuel to the injectors, or out of the back of the inj. pump. Multiple starting efforts while feathering the throttle yielded not even a drip out of any of the feeds to the injectors. I doubt the chain is broken? The throttle cable is attached to the lever at the rear of the inj. pump. There is no attachment to the lever a the front of the inj. pump.
Any ideas would be appreciated.

[asavage]

Wow! That's a nice conversion. (edit: I wrote this while Philip was posting above: yes, I know that pic of Philip's is not your Rambler!). I'd love to see any pictures you might have. If I can find a decent Rambler Wagon of that vintage (a Cross Country would be excellent!), I'd put one of my LD28s in it.

Any chance you have a picture of which IP you have? Or, generically, do the steel lines to the injectors come out the rear of the IP (horizontal) or the top of the IP (vertical)? Knowing that would narrow it down to the VE-style distributor IP, or the Inline IP.

1) Bosch inline injection pump

2) Bosch rotary injection pump

Which system is on your engine?

Upload pics to here, then PM me to let me know that you did.

[igaroot]

A 1959 Rambler. But using an SD23 diesel (having the VE Bosch IP (inj pump)) that was never sold in USA? Ummm... WHY?

I jumped at the chance to own a Nissan Diesel for cheap. Some of you may remember the auction on eBay last February. I did not know the SD23 was not sold in the USA.

What "chain" are you referring to? No chain(s) found within the SD diesels.

I was thinking that the IP was chain driven from the crank shaft. How is it powered?

Take some good photos of the under-hood and upload to Al. "Pictures are worth a thousand words."

Three photos just went to Al's server. They are a month old and not all that great. I'll try to take more this weekend.

[igaroot]

Any chance you have a picture of which IP you have? Or, generically, do the steel lines to the injectors come out the rear of the IP (horizontal) or the top of the IP (vertical)? Knowing that would narrow it down to the VE-style distributor IP, or the Inline IP.

The pics should be on your server now. Thank you for the link. The outlets of the IP are at the back. It does not look exactly like the rotary IP that you posted. The inlet and outlets are in the right place, but there are two arms on top. The accelerator cable attaches to the one at the back. The front arm is sprung and flops back and forth 45deg. I know, pictures. Maybe tomorrow.

[asavage]

Click on any image for larger.




Yup, I know that car (somewhat). I found a '59 American with AT in SE Portland about seven years ago, with that color exteriour and what appeared to be an original green interiour. I wanted it badly, but just could not come up with the cash. I really, really like the green color.



Visalia dealer plate trim. That is so cool. Want to sell it?

Surprisingly, the engine bay looks filled (lengthwise) by the SD. I wanted to put an LD28 Six in there! Didn't it come with the 196ci flathead Six originally?

There are some really interesting bits on that engine. I am not familiar with the SD23, but just off the top: the idler bracket shown that sandwiches the thermostat for its mounting both does and does not look like a Nissan part to me, though it is painted Nissan blue and has a Nissan-style adjustment mechanism and idler. It's in the approximate location of the SD22 A/C idler (Philip's show below):


The intake manifold has a cable sheave that is very reminiscent of the one used on the Maxima, including provision for the Nissan ASCD (Automatic Speed Control Device: cruise control):



In your engine pic, the temp sensor for the glow plug controller (GPC) is not connected -- "yet", I hope.



The IP is gear-driven in the SD engines, for both the Inline and Distributor IPs. Philip, that's a CAV IP, isn't it? Going to need more pics on that one. A couple of pics of the interiour, and the dash too! And just what did the fellow who did the conversion do about the odd driveline? I gotta see this!

[philip]

-snip- The IP is gear-driven in the SD engines, for both the Inline and Distributor IPs. Philip, that's a CAV IP, isn't it? Going to need more pics on that one. -snip-

From what I can see, the IP is a Lucas CAV. The CAV that 'we' have seen earlier has a mechanical fuel pump, just like a mechanical gasoline pump located ahead of the CAV drive gear. But I cannot see a mechanical pump on your engine. So ... 'we' need a photo of the engine viewing the passenger side.

The two belts. The belt wrapping around the idler drives the alternator? But the other belt (crank pulley and water pump) go to... what? The water pump pulley; does it have the off-set found in automotive or marine/industrial? Another photo.

The valve cover has two crankcase hoses. And what of a crankcase venting box on the left side of the block?

What sort of transmission is fitted?

I wonder if the valve cover's "SD23" is really an SD23. Look for the ID pad on the block, right side, next to the injection pump.

[plenzen]

Is the cable sheave on the intake perhaps an Intake Air Shut off? It would appear that the cable from inside the car goes to that as well from that point over to the FP. Perhaps a tug on the cable shuts both air and fuel off to shut down the engine. Maybe this engine is out of a fork lift or a piece of equipment. If that is a CAV pump, that lever on the top of it can be really touchy, and the tiniest bit of movement to the "Shut Off" position can sometimes be all it takes to not allow it to run. Only reason I know this is that I did a bit of work on an old Massey 165 Farm tractor recently with what appears to be this type of CAV pump in it (Perkins engine). I had re-routed a couple of cables and wires on it and ended up with something that would not run again, even though it was still warm from previously running. That is what I found, and the fuel shut off lever was only .050 or .100in. from the "run" position. The cable shut down on that also shut air and fuel down at the same time. Just a thought. The other thing is that, if that cable controls the TB and throttle at the same time, then the other lever that he mentions that is flopping back and forth on the top of the pump may be the fuel shut off control, and whatever position it is now in, or flops back and forth to, might be shutting the fuel off. I also remember that pump was a proper SOB to get the air out of as well.
. Cool car !

Paul

[igaroot]

NEW Pics should be on your server in a few minutes.

Philip, your questions should hopefully be answered by the photos. The pulley photo is kind of weird and makes you want to tilt your head. Don't know the tranny model. It is a five speed manual. Standard Nissan shift pattern. Mates perfectly w/ the SD23. Most likely original.

Pauly, your ideas on fuel and air shut off may lead to some results, and is definitely something to keep in mind.

I went to the car last evening to take some pics and pay the exhaust man. Tight fit! We tried to start it again w/ some luck. At least the IP pumped some fuel to the injectors. I think we need to allow more glow plug time. We left it flooded and dripping fuel from the unconnected, forward, sprung arm on the IP. I think we are close. Proper glow plug operation and fuel pumping seem like the keys to focus on here. Is there more to starting an SD than that?

Visalia dealer plate trim. That is so cool. Want to sell it?

Not yet.

Surprisingly, the engine bay looks filled (lengthwise) by the SD. I wanted to put an LD28 Six in there! Didn't it come with the 196ci flathead Six originally?

yup.

In your engine pic, the temp sensor for the glow plug controller (GPC) is not connected -- "yet", I hope.

Where are you seeing that in the picture? I was not aware of the GPC. A brief explanation may me lead me to the nirvana of starting. We were just gonna make sure the glow plugs got current before cranking.

[asavage]

Surprisingly, the engine bay looks filled (lengthwise) by the SD. I wanted to put an LD28 Six in there! Didn't it come with the 196ci flathead Six originally?

yup.

More research yielded that that 196 is about the shortest straight Six in modern days. I guess I will need and LD20T instead of an LD28.

In your engine pic, the temp sensor for the glow plug controller (GPC) is not connected -- "yet", I hope.

Where are you seeing that in the picture? I was not aware of the GPC. A brief explanation may me lead me to the nirvana of starting. We were just gonna make sure the glow plugs got current before cranking.

In normal circumstances, the glow plugs ON time is controlled by a separate controller. As installed in the 720 & D21, there are at least two distinct controllers. The later ones have a reduced-voltage "afterglow" function that runs the GPs for a time after the engine has started, at reduced voltage. The earlier system runs the GPs at full voltage after starting. The two systems use different GPs. Use of the early controller with late GPs burns the GPs quickly.

The industrial/marine/forklift/agricultural variants have their own GP control systems that probably look little like the automotive version.

Additionally, there exist aftermarket GP controllers, which can seem a bargain, if you compare prices with the Nissan units new.

Begin your SD GPC education with the * SD22 GLOW PLUG EXPERIENCE * thread.

Further info on the later system can be found in the * SD25 GLOW PLUGS * thread

I wrote some early system info in Cold weather starting... Glow System checks thread, including a wiring diagram an link to GP wiring schematic from the 1982 Nissan 720 Factory Service Manual ("FSM"). Which you will need shortly, if you do not have one. Highly recommended.

I put up a table of SD GP part Nos. and some specs in SD2x Glow plug information thread.

Some aftermarket GPC kits are discussed in glow plug circuit problemo thread

Having linked all those . . . here is your temperature sensor for the OEM GPC unit:


The single male spade terminal behind it is the gauge temp sending unit.



Now . . . IF you determine that your GPs are the early style (use the GP chart I linked above for part Nos.; you can usually read the numbers on the sides of the GPs pretty easily), you CAN use a momentary contact switch and just lean on it for a while. The early GPs are extremely tolerant of long glow times. BUT! They can and do hole and burn out:


If you suspect that the GPs aren't heating, do a current draw test (should be ~10-15a each after ten seconds), or pull them and apply battery voltage. The above linked threads will pay off if you read them.

The later GPs will not tolerate manual control for long. They are "fast glow" and rated for a reduced voltage; they are meant to be short-cycled and turned off or run via a resistor setup. Other brands cycle the main relay ON and OFF to prevent burnout, but Nissan didn't do things that way back then.

Now, on to your new pics . . .





You've confirmed that you have an SD23:




This is clearly a CAV IP; you can see the cast letters "CAV" on the IP housing cover (click on image for larger):



Confirmed by the dataplate:

Personally, I've never studied the CAV IP because it's never come up before. It wasn't supplied in the US for automotive trim SDs (AFAIK).



Philip, I'm betting this is a non-automotive version. Look at the water pump sheave. I'm guessing that perhaps a marine version is what this began life as.




Trans crossmember. No speedo hookup -- guess you'll just have to assume you've hit 100 MPH, eh?



Next pic I want to see is the back end of the driveshaft where it meets the differential. Then motor mounts.

[philip]

-SNIP
Philip, I'm betting this is a non-automotive version. Look at the water pump sheave. I'm guessing that perhaps a marine version is what this began life as.

TWO idlers. One belt to the alternator and another belt to the water pump. Agreed, the water pump "sheave" (pulley) has the deeper offset we've seen on marine/industrial SDs. Means the water pump too is not "automotive" version.

I don't see a mechanical fuel pump (lift pump) so ... where is "it?"

[asavage]

I don't see a mechanical fuel pump (lift pump) so ... where is "it?"

Good point. What lift pump does the SD with a CAV IP use?

[asavage]

Is the cable sheave on the intake perhaps an Intake Air Shut off?

No. The center post is a pivot. Maxima uses pretty much the same thing. It provides a means to connect multiple inputs to the single IP cable. In the Maxima's case, the cruise control servo has a cable that connects there, and the A/C idle-up vacuum servo is there too.

[igaroot]

Thanks for the GP tips Al. My education will begin shortly.

[edit by Admin: added pictures and descriptions.]
Left side of trans crossmember (click on image for larger):


Driveline-to-diff:


The engine mounts are a rough fabrication as well. You can see the other cross member in one of the pics.

I don't see a mechanical fuel pump (lift pump) so ... where is "it?"

Good point. What lift pump does the SD with a CAV IP use?

There is a lift pump in the top of the gas tank. Pic not included.

[igaroot]

The Rambler is at the house now. Mechanic agreed there was no hope. I still have some ideas. I know you all do to.

No combustion after a few hours under the hood today.

Today I checked all but one of the glow plugs (access). Three OK, each direct to battery. Tested all four together direct to battery w/ one out. That worked after I put the neg(-) on the threads of the extracted.
Cobbled together a simple glow plug circuit from pos(+) at starter to switch under steering column to GPs. I'm think this works because after switching on for ~20 seconds then cranking, somewhat warm vapors emanated from the intake manifold.

Disconnected the high pressure tubes to each injector and cranked the engine. Fuel is being delivered. Didn't confirm "high pressure" though. Should it be a pressurized squirt if delivery tube is disconnected from injector? This may be the first issue to investigate. Not enough fuel pressure?

Other mechanic says that it may be worth while to get the injectors checked out. I might remove them and take them to a diesel injector specialty shop tomorrow.

New battery at 760cca cranks good. Would slowish cranking be the whole problem?

Tight first turn (90 down) out of the exhaust manifold. Restriction?

This engine started ~3 months ago. No exhaust was attached yet, starting fluid was used (made me cringe) this was most likely without glow.
She is very close to putting. Help.

[asavage]

(click on any image for larger)

Disconnected the high pressure tubes to each injector and cranked the engine. Fuel is being delivered. Didn't confirm "high pressure" though. Should it be a pressurized squirt if delivery tube is disconnected from injector?

No. The volume of fuel squirted (under high pressure) is so small at cranking speed that it immediately expands and slows. You should see small pulses of fuel, but not very much.

Other mechanic says that it may be worth while to get the injectors checked out. I might remove them and take them to a diesel injector specialty shop tomorrow.

The history of this engine is that it was running well, idling, accelerating fine, just three weeks before the beginning of this thread. Unless you know something that we don't yet, there is no explanation for it not starting now that relates to all four injectors. Personally, I would not spend the time & money on checking injectors.

New battery at 760cca cranks good. Would slowish cranking be the whole problem?

Absolutely! Yes! It must crank fast, or game over.

Tight first turn (90 down) out of the exhaust manifold. Restriction?

Unless it's completely pinched off, it should start normally, even with only a 1/2" hole's worth of area! A pinched exhaust would severely limit power, but would not affect starting or idle at all.

This engine started ~3 months ago. No exhaust was attached yet, starting fluid was used (made me cringe) this was most likely without glow.
She is very close to putting. Help.

Using ether without GPs energized is OK (not good, but OK). I use this method for troubleshooting on especially tired engines.

If you suspect an exhaust issue, I advise loosening the two nuts at the headpipe-to-manifold. Just back them off six turns, don't even need to drop off the pipe.

I don't have any really good suggestions. Did you address Philip's suggestion that perhaps this CAV IP needs an external fuel pump?

[later]

Reading up on the CAV system (in the generic Nissan SD22/23/25/33 Service Manual: non-vehicle specific, it covers agricultural/industrial setups), they show testing a mechanical lift pump, specs are 5.7-8.0 PSI feed pressure to the IP.

Are you running an electric pump? I don't see one in your single engine bay pic. If you got a single spec of air in the system (say, a very small leak on a return line), I'd bet the CAV wouldn't run, if pressurized fuel isn't supplied.

This generic manual is not very in-depth, I'm afraid. It looks like the CAV was shipped in two different shutoff configs, perhaps more. It looks as if there might be TWO shutoffs on this IP, the stop lever at the front top (spring-loaded to RUN, I think) . . .


. . . plus what the manual is calling an "autostop solenoid", located perhaps at the bottom rear of the IP. Looking at your single IP pic, where does that orange wire go?



Does not appear to be the oil pressure switch. If it connects to a solenoid on the IP, perhaps you do not have 12v to it while cranking?

Things to check, anyway. I am making a lot of guesses on this.

Interestingly, for those following along, the CAV injector pressure is about 350 PSI higher than the other IPs.