IP shaft seal

[goglio704]

[Admin: I have split this thread out to here, because it clearly has nothing to do with the "P&P: Air intake hose" thread anymore.]

Are you still planning to replace your IP shaft seal with the pump in the car?

Yes, I'm certain it can be done in-chassis, and mine needs doing on the '82. I am planning on ordering a pile of the seals (there is a minimum order, IIRC) and making IP seal replacement a std feature of the IP belts I replace, because I believe this will affect pretty much all the VE IPs eventually. If you buy the viton seals and have to buy more than one, I'll buy the rest from you.

Have you had any luck with a source for the seal? I emailed these folks and they never responded: http://www.harwal.com/mseal_products.ph ... t_id=19272

Just behind the IP drive sprocket, sheave, or whatever you wish to call it the IP "nose" for lack of a better term comes out in a sort of conical shape. The seal is at the small end of this nose, right behind the sheave. Is that correct? I've got my radiator out, so I have good access. Going to read up on belt replacement before I take anything more loose, but I think I'm going to go for the seal if it is where I think it is.

[goglio704]

O.K.

Yes, the seal is directly behind the sheave. A small three jaw puller is necessary to remove the sheave from the IP and there is an Oh S#$t! moment when it pops off the tapered IP shaft making a snaping sound. Everything is fine. Be sure to pay attention to which keyway is used on the sheave as there are two. Also, be very careful not to lose the half moon key in the IP shaft. I left the IP drive belt on and the tensioner tight until I had the nut which retains the sheave off by the way. Further disassembly is going to wait until I have a replacement seal. Al, if I remember correctly you were going to try the sheet metal screw and possibly slide hammer approach? One or more holes will definitely have to be drilled in the seal in order to pull it. Any thoughts on the resulting filings? I assume there is either a bushing or bearing right behind this seal?

[asavage]

Have you had any luck with a source for the seal? I emailed these folks and they never responded: http://www.harwal.com/mseal_products.ph ... t_id=19272

Well, last year somebody was able to buy them from Harwal:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/view ... 9408#19408

Justin,

The following item:

17 x 28 x 07ADL VITON $12.41 ea. Minimum 4 pcs

Let me know!

Regards,
Rob Andreoletti
HARWAL

One possible issue is that it's called out as having a "rubber covered steel" structure, meaning that the OD may not be BD compatible. "Rubber" is not what I want to hear.

Note also the next post, where somebody got a different seal:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/view ... 9415#19415

I got a qoute from Floridabearings.com for $9.96 +del for 17x28x7 viton double lip encased metal. I've ordered one and will let you know when it gets here more info.

He never posted back on the topic, so we don't know the outcome.

Yeah, I'll drill the seal face, I'm pretty good with a .050" bit, have been doing some mild restoration work yesterday on a 1920s door opener, involving fabrication -- I'm turning extension springs into torsion springs! Anyway, doing a bunch of 1/16" drilling in 1/4" shafting for roll pins, a real bitch with a Chinese drill press with enough spindle wobble to . . . well, an appropriate metaphor escapes me just now.

Yeah, I'll drill the seal face. I'm not too worried about it, as I've removed hundreds of shaft seals over the years. One or another method will work, but I liked the idea of making small allen-wrench puller arms. There will be clear space behind the seal face, there always is. Filings, if any, will fall there. Vacuum cleaner augmented by gentle alcohol wash will pick up anything left there after the seal is removed. I'm more concerned about not damaging the bore where the seal OD is. But it's do-able.

28mm OD - 17mm ID = (11mm/2) = 5.5mm = ~.220" front margin. Subtracting the wall thickness of the steel structure (say, .035") and I'm still left with plenty to work with. A 1/6" hole (around .063") will fit there nicely. One on each side, and bit of puller work, it should not be a problem.

IT SHOULD BE NOTED that AFAIK, nobody has confirmed the seal size. One of us should measure the bore, shaft, and depth prior to ordering the seal(s). Since I have a spare IP, I suppose I ought to buckle down and do it.

[goglio704]

Al,

I really doubt there is more than one type of rubber used in an individual seal. It would be harder to mold these things if they used two types of rubber. It would be pretty obvious once a person had one in their hands. I might try emailing them again through my office email - maybe they don't like to deal with individual end users. You're right about the seal size - it hasn't been confirmed to be the same as a german built Bosch. I'll try to get this seal pulled in the next few days and get some measurements. Grease Works has a seal kit for the VE pumps. Kinda pricey since I just want the seal. No second chances with just one seal either.

[asavage]

I really doubt there is more than one type of rubber used in these seals.

No, it's quite common. Many of the seals sold in the automotive market (OEM and aftermarket) have a ring of sealant, for lack of a better term, on the OD of the seal case. It's designed to "wipe" as the seal is pressed (or more usually, beaten) in, and fill imprefections as it's installed. National (or was is Chicago Rawhide) seals have a kind of thick red paint on the OD that serves this function; OEM Mopar crank seals have a strip of orange hard goo that does it.

I don't want to assume that when Harwal typed "rubber" they meant something else. Assumptions have gotten me into a lot of trouble.

[goglio704]

I think Harwal typed rubber and meant rubber - viton rubber. I know what you are refering to with the sealer, but I don't think that is what we have here. I think this is the type of seal where the O.D. is rubber - the same rubber as the lip. Maybe they aren't that common in automotive applications, but I've seen them a lot in industry. This one is of the type I'm talking about.

Link to image now dead.

In the cutaway view the white represents the metal portion of the seal and the black is rubber - inside and out. Nonetheless, I agree with your idea of not assuming - need to ask, or better yet look at one. If it is viton brown inside and out - I'll put it in.

[asavage]

Grease Works has a seal kit for the VE pumps. Kinda pricey since I just want the seal. No second chances with just one seal either.

No! Do not buy the DGK-126 kit from Greaseworks. Glenlloyd has found at least two other suppliers for this kit for a LOT less money.





Note that the shaft seal is illustrated but not listed in the kit's parts sheet.

========================================================================
Steve writes:

USDiesel:
. . . think this is what you want...and at a price that's very attractive! Also, since I specifically asked them for online buying it appears that you can order this item online.

----------------------------
Original Message
----------------------------
Subject: DGK126
From: "Brad Glenn"
Date: Fri, October 28, 2005 3:10 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Steve,

Thank you for the e-mail.

DGK126 use 1467010059 stocked item $ 5.92 each

FOB Ft Worth
Texas. Subject to prior sale. All prices in US Funds.

Best Regards,
Brad
USDIESEL
========================================================================
And, from Chris Forman in Bothell, Wash (a non-member here):

VE IP gasket kit update.

US DIESEL, Fort Worth TX 800.328.0037
They put together two kits;
10059 is there standard for $5.92.
03991 is there upgrade which has an addition shaft oring, some VE pumps have a 7mm or a 20 mm shaft for $8.08. Typically send C.O.D. which costs $10 to UPS ground. No Credit Cards.
Will do a Paypal payment emailing to payment notice to
usdtx@sbcglobal.net

========================================================================
Steve writes:

Midland Service:

The price isn't as attractive here, but the kit is available through this shop.

If I tried to buy this item from my local Bosch shop in Des Moines, I wouldn't get far, it's clearly a shop-use item and I would bet that Bosch discourages the sale of these to the general public. Online however things are more anonymous and less restrictive.

----------------------------
Original Message
----------------------------
Subject: bosch kits
From: midlanddserv@aol.com
Date: Fri, October 28, 2005 8:39 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have in stock the bosch kits you are referring to.
The DGK126 lists for $12.60 and UPS frt would be an additional $6.32.

If you have any other questions, please call us at 800-469-6039.

Thank you for your interest.

Jon
Guscette

Chris Forman writes:
[corrected phone number]
MIDLAND SERVICE, ND 800.467.6039 not 469.
Craig sells parts
========================================================================

There. Don't pay prices that are sky-high: Steve & Chris have done the legwork if you want the Bosch kit. But be warned I think that Steve's eBay-sourced kit has a black shaft seal. I don't care that it says Bosch on the box, I'm not installing a black seal unless I get a LOT better proof that it'll work with B100.

[asavage]

In the cutaway view the white represents the metal portion of the seal and the black is rubber - inside and out.

Oh, sure, that's common on motorcycles, you don't have any exposed metal at all. But is that what Harwal is selling? . . . . hmmm, I think that you're right, looking at Harwal's cross-section view again, it does appear to be this "coated" style of construction. Good!

[goglio704]

Hey thanks for the info. I thought Grease Works was high, but without knowing what all is in the kit it was hard to judge.

[asavage]

17 x 28 x 07ADL VITON $12.41 ea. Minimum 4 pcs

IT SHOULD BE NOTED that AFAIK, nobody has confirmed the seal size.

It appears to me that this seal is 20mm ID x 31mm OD.

For which Harwal does not offer viton.

[goglio704]

Well the next question on my mind is what size is the seal in the VE pump kits? Either somebody was way off base on reporting that seal as fitting the VE or the Kiki is different. Looks like I'll be pulling the seal before ordering one because thickness is another potential issue. What pressure range will this seal need to withstand? What would really suck would be if nobody makes Viton in this size .

[asavage]

What, you expected this to be easy??

If you look at the DGK-126 kit above, you'll see that the seal is illustration No. 3 (Steve boxed it in). There is no No. 3 included with the kit. This is consistent with what someone else reported in one of the VW NGs . . . let me see if I can find the reference . . . yup, it's here:

(from http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... 2108#22108)

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:05 am
Post subject: injection pump seal set

My local bosch guy says the 121 has an o-ring for the aneroid.
It also has a drive shaft seal that you don't need.

On a NA injection pump, use the DGK 126 seal set. This set doesn't come with a drive shaft seal.

When I asked Steve about it a month ago, this was his reply:

If you're talking about the seal I've "squared" then yes, the kit I have does have this seal. If it's not this item then I don't know because I
can't ID the actual "shaft seal" in question.

Then again my kit is not viton, it's nitrile. All of the bits are black . . .

So Steve's kit came with a shaft seal (he thinks), even though it's not listed in the Parts List.

Also, see above where Chris Forman wrote:

US DIESEL, Fort Worth TX 800.328.0037
They put together two kits;
10059 is there standard for $5.92.
03991 is there upgrade which has an addition shaft oring, some VE pumps have a 7mm or a 20 mm shaft for $8.08.

"20mm", eh? Sound familiar? He probably meant "17mm or a 20mm shaft . . . ". 17mm for some VEs, 20mm for others.

I don't think this is insurmountable, but ten minutes with Google didn't find me a nice, "choose your seal" interface like Harwal as an alternative. I may have to actually -- gasp -- use the phone.

Yes, the IP housing is pressurised -- that's how the timing advancer works, i't's hydraulic -- but I do not know to what extent.

Feel free to do the legwork on this one, Matt.

[goglio704]

Glad to see the site back up. I will definitely have to do the legwork now because my seal is out. It is in fact 31mm OD x 20mm ID x 7mm thick. So far I have not had any luck sourcing a Viton seal in this size. More phone calls about this are definitely in my future. Removing the seal wasn't real difficult, but it wasn't something I would want to do often. Drilled the seal and ran a #6 sheet metal screw in it. Pulled the seal on the third try with pliers. #6 screw is really too big - it would bust the inner edge of the steel and the screw would pull out. The successful attempt had the pilot hole closer to the outer edge, and the inner edge didn't fail that time. #4 sheet metal screw would be the ticket. I really hope I can buy a Viton seal, because I'm going to feel like an idiot if I have to put Nitrile back in - because mine wasn't leaking .

[glenlloyd]

So Steve's kit came with a shaft seal (he thinks), even though it's not listed in the Parts List.

The kit does include the shaft seal. Why it wasn't listed in the schematic I don't know, but the kit contained several small plastic bags of bits, one of which contained the shaft seal.

Also, my kit is all nitrile I assume because it is older. I think it was probably NOS on the shelf somewhere and they just wanted to get rid of it.

I'll go through it when I'm home next and try to ID all the included bits to see exactly what else came with it that isn't listed on the parts sheet.

This doesn't mean that the newer viton DGK-126 kit has the same components but I would find it odd if it doesn't. Saying that it I would also have to admit that it wouldn't surprise me to find that Bosch changed the contents of the kit either, excluding the shaft seal...who knows. It wouldn't be a bad idea to ask a vendor for the contents list of the viton DGK-126 kit.

I need to buy several of these in viton just to have around.

steve a

[asavage]

I really hope I can buy a Viton seal.

I am awaiting the results of your legwork on this . . . I just will not be able to get to it soon. Keep us apprised.