Mechanical IP timing adapter

#31

There's another one up for grabs. The seller laid the original parts list / diagram down underneath so you can see how the gauge fits into the bracket. It must work the opposite way the Denso model does.

BTW Al, that isn't a Toyota 2LT your working on is it? I'm confused by the turbo IP vs. the photo that I think shows a non-turbo intake on the Toyota engine.

steve a

#32

Just found the same auction. I'd bid if I knew it had the right threads for the port on the Kiki pump. From what I've read, there are at least two port threads common in the VE pumps.

#33

I think I've posted these before, but here are some Toyota/SPX/OTC pics of a similar tool:

I'm working on a 2L. The diaphagm on top is the altitude compensator, just like the LD28's IP.

#34

asavage wrote:I'm working on a 2L. The diaphagm on top is the altitude compensator, just like the LD28's IP.

Hmmm...I didn't recall that my 2L had that pump...I'll have to check and see.

steve a

#35

goglio704 wrote:From what I've read, there are at least two port threads common in the VE pumps.

Really? I didn't know that. Guess I'll find out, eh?

Steve, thanks for that pic. Now I understand how the dial indicator is clamped. I've got several DIs, so one of them should fit.

#36

I had come across some English timing sets for VE pumps which included an adapter that was just a bushing threaded internally and externally. I can't find them back now of course. They were variants of the typical, long, inline adapter that we can't use.

#37

Found some info from eBay Seller ZDMAK.
Auction 180178113138, BIN US$70

Bosch Diesel Injection Pump Timing Indicator Tools
Dial Indicator and Holder

(Please note : Picture is for reference only).

This set has a dial guage with an 8mm shank.
(rare at this price) Tools are used for the accurate setting of the Bosch diesel fuel injection pump timing. The Holder screws into the back of the injection pump, giving a dial indicator reading necessary for setting the correct pump timing. This set comes complete with the correct tools for the job! Contents: Metric Dial Indicator, plus holder plus extension pins (2) making the timing easy to set, as the timing has a range from 0.83mm to 1.15mm. For use on VW and Audi diesels. Indicator Holder Set - Suitable for timing Bosch VE injection pumps. Includes M8, M10, and M12 adapters. To be used in conjunction with Dial gauge. Applicable: Bosch VE fuel pump, Diesel pumps. Indicator Holder for both size shanks Also works with 1981-1986 Volvo 6 cyl 2.4L diesels, 1989-1994 Dodge 6 cyl 5.9L diesels.

OK, I have the VW adapter, and it's 8mm:

I know it fits the Toyota Denso VE-style IP:

I know it fits the Nissan LD28 Kiki-Diesel IP, because I just pulled the plug from my spare '82's IP and measured it:

What I don't know is if the IP used on the Ford/Mazda/Perkins 2.0l Four has an 8mm timing plug hole. That is, will the Rotunda tool I just bought fit the VW/Toyota/Nissan VE-style IPs?

Some interesting pics: note the tight space to get the plug out. It's evident that all the IP lines must be removed on the LD28 IP in order to get an adapter in there. Hell, even with needle-nose pliers, I had a devil of a time getting that plug out and in!

#38

I received the Rotunda unit today. It's adapter is 8mm

Tomorrow I hope to try to fit it up to the Toyota 2L diesel and see if it will work in place of the OTC unit (that mounts the dial indicator in the opposite direction).

#39

Al,

Do you think the Rotunda tool will work on the Maxima? IIRC, it was not successful on the Toyota, but how about the Maxima?

#40

While the Rotunda adapter would fit the LD28 IP, the No. 5 injector line would have to be removed. With that line removed, the Rotunda adapter could come out the side, above the motor mount and below the CSD body.

The problem with that idea is that in order to remove the line nut, one has to backstop the delivery valve holder with a 14mm wrench -- I just tried this on the bench, and the delivery valve holder unscrews from the distributor head before the line nut breaks loose from the delivery valve holder.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get a wrench or similar on the delivery valve holder unless perhaps the CSD bracket is removed. To do that, you'd have to remove the AT modulator valve as well, the coolant hoses for the CSD, etc., then persuade three screws from the distributor head, one of which is one of the four main bolts that retain the distributor head to the IP main casting, which isn't a bolt I'd want to disturb unless I was prepared to replace the large o-ring that seals the two together.

It might be possible to fish a 14mm crowsfoot in the inside of the lines (ie where the plug is in the centre) and hold the deliver valve holder that way, but getting it in there would not be fun, and then the trick would be to get a 3/8" extension in-between the line to attach to the crowsfoot.

By the time you've done all that, the "Dr Jones" cut-up VW adapter looks a lot more appealing, I think. Except . . .

The factory method, outlined in the 1982 FSM, pages MA-25 & 26, states, "Remove fuel injection tubes. Use two wrenches," and shows an illustration of loosening a line from an injector. Next picture shows the dial indicator in the back of the IP, with all six lines removed.

"Dr Jones" must have removed some or all of the injector lines to use his cut-up adapter, though he doesn't mention it from what I just re-read of this thread. Looking at my IP on the bench (pictured above), there is not nearly enough room in the centre to get an adapter down through the six injector lines, though if Nos. 1 & 4 lines were removed, there would be.

This is the reason why I've put off using the mechanical method of timing this IP for twelve years: I don't think it can be done on my old car unless I remove a lot more than the FSM lets on.

#41

I see the three screws retaining the CSD bracket, if one of them also secures the head, it must not be a square pattern that retains the head?

What would happen if you let the delivery valve holder back out with the line and then separated it from the line and reinstalled the delivery valve holder using a socket perhaps?

I can see that this approach could wear or gall the sealing surface of the line and its mating surface, but what other problems might there be? Contamination of the pump's innards is obviously a risk, but what else?

#42

goglio704 wrote:I see the three screws retaining the CSD bracket, if one of them also secures the head, it must not be a square pattern that retains the head?

The steel distributor head mates to the alum IP body with four long screws, one in each corner.

The CSD bracket mounts to the distributor head with three bolts, one of which is one of the distributor-head-to-IP-body bolts; presumably, the two others thread into blind holes in the distributor head.

What would happen if you let the delivery valve holder back out with the line . . .

Can't: If the line nut does not loosen from the delivery valve holder, the steel injector line must twist and be destroyed in order for the delivery valve holder to back out of the distributor head.

#43

What would happen if you let the delivery valve holder back out with the line . . .

Can't: If the line nut does not loosen from the delivery valve holder, the steel injector line must twist and be destroyed in order for the delivery valve holder to back out of the distributor head.

Al,

It really looks pretty hopeless the way it is. Do you know if those lines could be cut and patched with standard brake lines & fitting? Pressure s/b about 2000 psi, so parts capable of 2500 psi working pressure s/b good. But I don't know what the working pressure of standard brake parts is supposed to be.

Now I think about it, wouldn't setting the timing with a Tac'n'Time (or such) followed by some hill climbs to bench mark speed and EGT work better than static timing anyway? It'd provide correct settings for a particular engine. There'd be the cost of installing a pyrometer (the sensor at least - you could use the head temporarily) for the run. Did you install a pyrometer in your wagon - is it a reasonably practical job? (one day or less and possible for the average owner-mechanic?)

Rufus

#44

Hmmm. That must be a reverent silence for something _really_ stupid. <G>

However, I do wonder if some form of "dynamic" timing would yield results at least as good as any static timing. The desired end is torque (measurable) with low engine wear (measurable by EGT's). Or are there other forms of wear and tear that don't show up? EG analyzers aren't too hard to find either, though I don't know what exactly you'd look for - 'cept O2 and that isn't really a timing issue.

Anybody?

Rufus

#45

I kept silent -- since you specifically asked Al -- but I don't think anything good could come from cutting an injection line. I thought a VE pump injects at about 5,000 PSI, but I don't know for sure.

I have had similar thoughts about using EGT as an indication of timing. Until it produces high EGT, advance is a good thing isn't it? There is also an emissions issue related to advanced injection timing. High levels of something. NOx or some such.

I think the goal of static timing has always been that it would be a good baseline reference. If two or three cars could be static timed and then shot with a timing light, we'd have reference points. Once the data was collected, no more need for static timing.

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