My 83 won't start consistantly and my recent repairs

Discuss (and cuss) the Nissan LD-series OHC Six diesel engine, popularly available in the US in 1981-83 Datsun/Nissan Maxima Sedans & Wagons.

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asavage
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#16

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

83_maxima wrote:That explanation for your problem is pure b/s. If your car started and drove for 1/4 mile, the engine was warm enough to fire all cylinders, and stay running. It is not just going to quit because the timer shuts off.
Ditto. Sorry, Paul, but it ain't fixed, if GPs is all they did.

And if GPs were indicated, you want to replace the bus bar with a non-aluminum one, like the ones Steve makes (link to thread in my previous post). Too late now to have them do it.

You didn't happen to get the old GPs back, did you? I'd buy them from you, and I'd esp. like to see a bad one from an LD28.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.

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Midnightz
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#17

Post by Midnightz » 13 years ago

You didn't happen to get the old GPs back, did you? I'd buy them from you, and I'd esp. like to see a bad one from an LD28.
Shoot! Called the shop and the parts were thrown out. I could go and look for them in their dump... :roll: I should have asked for the old GP's before I left.

To monitor the fuel line, I am going permanently tee a vacuum gauge between the fuel filter and the IP like this:

Image

Image

I figure next time when the engine stalls, the vacuum gauge would give me a clue on what's going on. Vacuum = restricted fuel source. No vacuum = air in fuel.
90 Midnight Blue 300ZX NA 2+2 (DD)
83 Maxima Wagon Diesel (parted out-going into 240Z)
73 240Z (LD28 swap project)
08 Mercedes Benz GL320CDI

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asavage
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#18

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

Midnightz wrote:Vacuum = restricted fuel source. No vacuum = air in fuel.
No vacuum can also mean that the lift pump in the IP has failed, or that the IP Fuel Cut Solenoid is OFF or not getting 12v. But your gauge is an excellent Step One.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.

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Midnightz
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#19

Post by Midnightz » 13 years ago

well, :evil:

I'm still having the idle/won't start issue. Tried to drive it this afternoon and was only able to circle around the parking lot and stalled. I was able to keep it idle a little while by flooring it. But eventually it would stall. I hadn't had the chance to install my vacuum gauge, yet, so I am not sure if I am having air leak or fuel restriction; however, the fuel squirted out of the vent hole on my first pump on the priming pump... The fuel was pretty gooey... Almost like, cooking oil. Don't remember the fuel was that viscous the last two times I changed the filter. The outside temp was 41F. Is it possible that I have a bad patch of fuel? I've driven at least 1/4 tank since fill-up.

Called Green Car Co. and will arrange a tow tomorrow. What should I tell them to look for? Air leak in fuel line, , , ???
90 Midnight Blue 300ZX NA 2+2 (DD)
83 Maxima Wagon Diesel (parted out-going into 240Z)
73 240Z (LD28 swap project)
08 Mercedes Benz GL320CDI

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asavage
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#20

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

Diesel fuel is winterized at the distribution point for regional temperature differences. Fuel bought in summer may not work well in winter.

Seriously, Paul, chances are that you can diagnose this better than Green Car Co. can.

Replacing GPs for a stalling problem is almost criminal. If that is the story you got, do not go back to them.

Off the top of my head, and in order of likelihood:
  • Non-winterized fuel (ie old home heating oil, or "summer" diesel);
  • Plugging filter again (pump the whole tank out and start fresh (1));
  • Restriction in lines or tank pickup (or clogged tank vent: see the Rabbit Story);
  • Air in fuel (leaking joint, leaking line) (2);
  • IP feed pump failure (3);
  • Fuel Cut Solenoid failure (or low voltage to it)
None of this is specific to the LD28, and GCC should not have been going to the GP system first. I think they couldn't reproduce the stalling (warmer temp than when it died?) and fixed the first thing they thought was bad.

Don't take it back. You are throwing your money away. Plumb the gauge.

(1) You can borrow my Mity-Vac (holds six quarts) to drain the tank if need be. Or buy one for $60, they are extremely handy.

Image

(2) If you suspect air, temporarily patch the IP return line with two feet of clear vinyl tubing (aquarium line from the hardware store) and when you can get it started, watch the return. You can try this on the feed line, but it can be harder to plumb. Don't leave the vinyl line in place, it can't hold up.

(3) This one is tricky to test for. The one I've seen with this symptom (Tom's '86 Toyota PU) had this failure. I "tested" it by trying to run it force-fed via a cheap electric fuel pump that provides about 5 PSI. The engine would run with the pump on, but not without (and the pump bypassed so the IP did not have to draw through the pump). Next, I put a vacuum gauge on the IP inlet and found nil vacuum. I do not have the number off the top of my head, but the IP should develop several inches vacuum if it's in good condition.

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#21

Post by goglio704 » 13 years ago

asavage wrote:This one is tricky to test for. The one I've seen with this symptom (Tom's '86 Toyota PU) had this failure. I "tested" it by trying to run it force-fed via a cheap electric fuel pump that provides about 5 PSI.
What am I supposed to say to that? :P How much grief have you given me over electric fuel pumps? :shock: :? :shock: :lol: :wink:
Matt B.

83 Maxima Sedan, LD28, 5 speed, white, 130k miles. My original Maxima.
83 Maxima Sedan converted from gasser, LD28, 5 speed, 2 tone blue, 230k miles
82 Maxima Sedan, LD28, 3 speed auto, 2 tone Gray/Silver, 140k miles
81 810 Sedan, LD28, 3 speed auto, rust, rust, and more rust!

2005 Jeep Liberty CRD

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Midnightz
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#22

Post by Midnightz » 13 years ago

asavage wrote:Replacing GPs for a stalling problem is almost criminal. If that is the story you got, do not go back to them.
Yeah, I am not too happy. I am taking it back only because I paid pretty penny for their "solution" and refuse to let them get off that easily. :x
90 Midnight Blue 300ZX NA 2+2 (DD)
83 Maxima Wagon Diesel (parted out-going into 240Z)
73 240Z (LD28 swap project)
08 Mercedes Benz GL320CDI

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asavage
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#23

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

goglio704 wrote:
asavage wrote:I "tested" it by trying to run it force-fed via a cheap electric fuel pump that provides about 5 PSI.
What am I supposed to say to that? :P How much grief have you given me over electric fuel pumps? :shock:
I don't like to rely on aftermarket electric fuel pumps for anything. I used one for testing. And, at that, Tom installed it (and did a very nice job of it). He offered to remove it after I finished, but because his priming pump is shot, I told him to just leave it in. The bypass is a ball valve. Normal operation: the engine runs without the electric pump in the circuit at all normally, and if he needs to prime the filter, he can close the ball valve, hook up a couple clip leads and open the bleeder.

If his priming pump was working, I'd have pulled the electric pump off.
Midnightz wrote:
asavage wrote:Replacing GPs for a stalling problem is almost criminal. If that is the story you got, do not go back to them.
Yeah, I am not too happy. I am taking it back only because I paid pretty penny for their "solution" and refuse to let them get off that easily. :x
I would not let those folks' hands on my engine. They next may try to "fix" it by loosening the IP and moving it around, "It was stalling because the timing was retarded," :shock:. Do you think they have an appropriate IP adapter to re-time it correctly? I suspect not, etc. Write off the pretty penny and tell everyone you know.

But I know where you're coming from.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.

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#24

Post by goglio704 » 13 years ago

asavage wrote:I don't like to rely on aftermarket electric fuel pumps for anything. I used one for testing. And, at that, Tom installed it (and did a very nice job of it). He offered to remove it after I finished, but because his priming pump is shot, I told him to just leave it in. The bypass is a ball valve. Normal operation: the engine runs without the electric pump in the circuit at all normally, and if he needs to prime the filter, he can close the ball valve, hook up a couple clip leads and open the bleeder.

If his priming pump was working, I'd have pulled the electric pump off.
I know. I just used mine for priming and diagnostics too. Sorry for the off topic, but I couldn't resist. I have to wonder what's next? Ether? :lol: :wink:

P.S. I have to agree with Al about keeping it away from that shop. The only thing worse than having a car towed to a shop, is having it towed out of a shop in worse shape than it went in. I would consider getting five gallons of nice fresh petrodiesel and running 5/16 fuel hose from the filter to the jug for a temporary fuel supply. Maybe a change of diet would reveal something useful.

P.P.S. Al, is that model of mityvac essentially a garden sprayer that sucks?
Last edited by goglio704 13 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
Matt B.

83 Maxima Sedan, LD28, 5 speed, white, 130k miles. My original Maxima.
83 Maxima Sedan converted from gasser, LD28, 5 speed, 2 tone blue, 230k miles
82 Maxima Sedan, LD28, 3 speed auto, 2 tone Gray/Silver, 140k miles
81 810 Sedan, LD28, 3 speed auto, rust, rust, and more rust!

2005 Jeep Liberty CRD

Carimbo
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#25

Post by Carimbo » 13 years ago

asavage wrote:(2) If you suspect air, temporarily patch the IP return line with two feet of clear vinyl tubing (aquarium line from the hardware store) and when you can get it started, watch the return. You can try this on the feed line, but it can be harder to plumb. Don't leave the vinyl line in place, it can't hold up.
IIRC, the return line is close in size to the 3/16" flexible vinyl tubing you can find at most HW stores. Al is suggesting you temporarily clamp that in place of the existing return hose section to watch for streaming small bubbles when the car is running. Should be none.

RE: The appearance of you fuel: Take a small sample fresh from the station and compare it to what is coming out of your air bleed; it should not be appreciably different.

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#26

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

goglio704 wrote:is that model of mityvac essentially a garden sprayer that sucks?
Well, instead of your typical garden sprayer blow-mold construction, this is much better built. It comes with four 4' sections of stiff nylon tubing (which can be joined together, sometimes useful). The smallest ones can go down a dipstick tube. I use it a lot to remove a sample from an AT via its dipstick tube. Also used a lot for emptying brake fluid reservoir prior to changing the brake fluid (every 30k miles on the Maxima, according to the FSM -- have you changed your brake fluid lately?) and power steering fluid changes. It's very handy. Hard part is recycling what you sucked out.

It's a bit over 2' high and holds about six quarts.

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#27

Post by kassim503 » 13 years ago

Carimbo wrote: IIRC, the return line is close in size to the 3/16" flexible vinyl tubing you can find at most HW stores. Al is suggesting you temporarily clamp that in place of the existing return hose section to watch for streaming small bubbles when the car is running. Should be none.
Make sure its fuel rated though, I reccomend tygon tubing, mostly because ive seen it hold it hold up against wonders of chemicals and stuff that im not sure anything else would last very long to. Definitely dont want hose degradation from not spending a extra couple of cents on fuel rated hose.

I agree with Al and Matt on the shop situation, I wouldnt let sombody touch my car again if they told me glow plugs would solve a idle problem after the engine is fired up. I used to not know much about diesels, but im getting there.
'83 maxima sedan, l24e, a/t, black

227K SOLD 6/7/2012

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asavage
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#28

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

Don't need special tubing if plumbing into the return line. It will only be installed for minutes.

If plumbing into the feed line, you have to worry about the tubing disintegrating and going into the IP. Not a problem if on the return line.

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Midnightz
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#29

Post by Midnightz » 13 years ago

Went to the parking lot this morning and it'll just crank and won't fire at all. The temp was 34F. Gee-whiz, shouldn't it work with brand new GP's? :roll:
asavage wrote: * Non-winterized fuel (ie old home heating oil, or "summer" diesel)
The B99 in the tank was bought on Oct 18 from Seaport in S Seattle. Could this "summer blend" B99 gel'd up at this temperature?

I am planning on leaving work a little early and get a jug of petrodiesel and feed it to the filter inlet and see if that's my problem.
90 Midnight Blue 300ZX NA 2+2 (DD)
83 Maxima Wagon Diesel (parted out-going into 240Z)
73 240Z (LD28 swap project)
08 Mercedes Benz GL320CDI

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asavage
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#30

Post by asavage » 13 years ago

Midnightz wrote:The temp was 34F. . . . The B99 in the tank was bought on Oct 18 from Seaport in S Seattle.
:shock:

There's no way that B99 (without anti-gel additive) is going to be fluid at 34°F. There is no doubt: this is a problem.

I don't think you mentioned BD in this thread. If you had, I'd have picked up on it right away.

You will need to blend PD & BD at 20/80 or more (more PD) if you are going to be operating below 40°. I bought $120 of Power Service Arctic Express Biodiesel Anti-Gel to avoid the PD blending, but you have to do something.

Diesel will gel in cold weather. "Winterized" diesel is usually a blend of No. 1 & No. 2 diesel, and has less lubricity and less BTUs/gallon, so your winter mileage & power drops with winterized fuel. But its cloud point (the temp at which it begins to gel) is lower.

Biodiesel -- all biodiesel -- has a higher cloud point than PD. The exact number varies depending on the feedstock used to produce the BD, with animal-fat-based feedstocks typically being the worst (clouds in the high 40's in some cases).

You need to either use an anti-gel additive, or blend with PD, for winter operation. In contrast to PD distributors, most BD distributors do not/will not "winterized" the fuel, because many of their customers are doing their own thing with the BD.

I have five gallons of PS AE BD Anti-Gel here, in two 2.5 gallon jugs. Because I cannot buy BD right now, I'm not using it and I've never used much of it so I cannot say how well it works, but I would sell you 2.5 gallons. Or you can try to buy it local. But blending with PD is the easiest method (unless, like me, you have issues with using any PD at all).

But, yes, you need to get the fuel blended down to a level that will flow. Unfortunately, because we are not going to see weather much above 40° today, the typical fix is to tow it into a garage, heat up the garage, get it running, pour a bunch of PD in the tank and drive it vigorously immediately to mix it up.

I've used a hairdryer under the hood to get the underhood temp up enough to "thaw" all that, but if you can't get the tank of fuel + the line to the filter up to temp, the hairdryer won't do any good. You'll need to get the whole car up to above 50°.
Last edited by asavage 12 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,
Al S.

1982 Maxima diesel wagon, 2nd & 4th owner, 165k miles, rusty & burgundy/grey. Purchased 1996, SOLD 16Feb10
1983 Maxima diesel wagon, 199k miles, rusty, light yellow/light brown. SOLD 14Jul07
1981 720 SD22 (scrapped 04Sep07)
1983 Sentra CD17, 255k, bought 06Jul08, gave it away 22Jun10.

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